Makers, How do you make sure you get paid?

Alan Folts

Alan Folts

Joined
Oct 4, 1998
Messages
427
I was just wondering what other makers do in terms of payment and delivery to their customers.

I rescently had a bad experience with a telephone/internet order. A gentleman called me and said that he just returned from Iraq and saw one of my knives, looked it up on my website, and should have ordered it before he left. We discussed the project and his chosen materials and such and I gave him a delivery time that was reasonable because of the changes that I would have to make to the design to fit his material choices. Well to make the long story even longer, I called his contact information EARLY to tell him the knife was ready and that we could arrange delivery. I talked to his wife who kindly asked me if I could send the knife the next day so it would arrive before christmas, She also asked that if HE called to tell him there was some delays because she was going to go ahead and pay for it and give it to him for christmas. Easy enough to beleive, My wife would do something like that... Well, the knife was sent off insured and with delivery confirmation and arrived on the 22nd of December. Needless to say, being the Patriot that I am, and seeing the guy was just getting off deployment to Iraq, I encluded a few things free of charge, an extra kydex sheath, a G10 non magnetic knife of the same design as the ordered knife, and I did all the extras on his ordered knife at no charge, for a show of respect to the military men working for our country. Short story short I started calling them about 3 weeks after I hadn't received a check, I figured I would give the post office some time arround the holidays to get everthing sent, I received nothing. Their phone would go to a fax machine on the 2nd ring for WEEKS!! I finally got a hold of them in late January and they said they were sorry but the wife had forgotten to send out the payment for the knife, I understood, gave them my contact info again and they said it would be sent out the next day... Still nothing. I have been calling them daily lately and now their answering machine will not even cut on to leave them a message.

What do you other makers do? I have always sent off knives before payment, and have never been burned, usually the customers payment arrives within a day or 2 of the knife arriving to them...

Thanks for letting me rant and I look forward to hearing what you guys do to make sure you get payment...

Alan Folts
 
Sounds very familiar, Alan...

There was a scam that was going on just like this one a few months ago...

I'll do a lil searchin'...and post the link here...gimme a few...

Dan
 
I had a similar experience last year. It makes you more cautious of people. I am a very giving person, but I am not a doormat either. You have to tell them that you have certain requirements they have to meet to get their knife. One of them is that you have to get paid first.
I've been very fortunate and have only gotten ripped off once, but I eventually got my knife back and the knives of four more dealers and friends. Stay one it and don't let up on them for a minute. You can call me at home and I'll give you some interesting advice to get them to comply. If someone is in that big of a hurry, it probably is a scam. There are ways they can get their knives once they leave for duty. Call me.

Bobby
 
found it right as you posted it...


Sadly, Yes, it was your experience I was looking for, Bobby...:confused: :( :(

:mad: :mad:
 
Alan - you and Bobby need to talk!

Please keep us updated...
 
I wish there was an easy answer to your question.

My first instinct is to say "Who has the greater reputation at risk?" That person should be the one who delivers last. Make sense?

If the buyer is well known (revered), I never ask for prepayment until completed because I can rely on others' experiences.

Otherwise, if they came to me because of my name (and I have no idea who they are) then I ask for prepayment because I stand to lose more on my reputation if I don't deliver (they lose nothing if they don't pay).

Anyway, it fits my way of thinking...


And I always ship insured/verified/registered/etc. (even if the buyer doesn't want to pay for it - I'll eat the cost, it's worth it).
 
I had a similar experience happen TWICE. The first time was just due to my own youth and ignorance........the second time changed the way I do business. In both instances I basically did the same thing as you. Sent the items off to someone I assumed to be trustworthy. The first individual was actually a knifemaker, who I thought I could trust, that incident occurred over 10 years ago, and I still have not seen the money he owes me. The second was a regular customer who had purchased several pieces from me, so I had no reservations about sending him the THREE knives. He never paid, and when I tried to contact him the phone was disconnected, and letters sent were returned with "no longer at this address" stamped on them. Now, it doesn't matter who it is.....I have a check, money order, or a credit card number in hand before the knife ever leaves the shop. I do also give customers a 7 day inspection period after receiving the knife, during which time they can return the piece for any reason, and I will return their $$ to them. It's a shame, but there are vultures out there, just waiting to prey on our good nature. My solution may seem overly harsh to some, but sometimes we become a product of our environment, and react based on our experences.
 
Thanks for the info guys!! I like to think of myself as someone with the confidence of fellow human being as honorable and trustworthy, as the people in the knifemaking community have proven themselves to be. I think becoming a knifemaker and being part of this truely trustworthy community has given me a little tunnel vision to what the rest of humanity is really about lately.

After reading Bobbys' thread I have seen an error in my ways. I will continue to trust the people from this community in the ways I always have, but will hold the average individual to a more severe judgement:)

Bobby, thanks for the thread and your time. Hopefully this is not the same guy, as I am dealing with an individual in Colorado Springs not Indiana.. And I also looked him up on the locator and found his name and address to be the same through the Millitary. Hopefully I am the only one this is happening to from this individual and that it can be brought to a close.

He is millitary and is listed in their locator, he just doesnt like to pay what's owed. Heck, I would settle for the knife back, I could sell it for more than I charged him, due to the fact he was military.

Thanks guys!!

Alan Folts
 
If he is Military, you can really cause him some grief.
I learned the hard way. Now I always follow my gut feelings.

Bobby
 
Personally, I don't like to be paid in advance, but I won't ship out a knife in advance of payment, unless I have a long-standing relationship with someone.

Sadly, there are actually a few well-known knifemakers who take payment and never deliver! (opposite this situation)


I see this as the natural by-product of a trust-based profession. In my day job (architecture), trust is spelled out in long legal documents approved by lawyers, etc...:( It's not the way I would choose to work, but frankly, when there's a misunderstanding involving thousands or even millions of $$, it helps to have your rear-end covered.

I enjoy knifemaking and the knife community because of their trust. A fine example of that trust is Bill Martino of Himalayan Imports. The first 2 khukuris I ordered from him showed up the day before I sent payment. Granted, his situation is unique, but I know for a fact that he has been burned a number of times over the years, but since he gets such great return business because of his trust-based policy, who cares? He probably sells twice as many knives because of that, and maybe gets burned 1 out of 100...a fair payoff in his book.
 
Originally posted by Ed Caffrey
It's a shame, but there are vultures out there, just waiting to prey on our good nature.
Click to expand...

I can't agree more, Ed. We knifemakers are indeed a truly nice bunch of folks, and the buyers and vultures alike know this. I look at the situation this way - If you were at a show, you typically wouldn't let someone run off with the knife before paying, right? I don't ask for a deposit or prepayment for a knife before I make it because if the customer decides to default on the purchase, I always got one more for show inventory... but I always get my money in one hand before the piece leaves the other hand. Hey after all it's my hard work on the line and my work speaks for itself.

There's no shame in being straightforward with your customers. If you tell them straight out that your policy is to be paid first, then your reputation must rely on YOUR honesty to deliver the knife - not the customer's. If a customer squabbles over that, then they may not be worth the effort. Honesty is always the best policy, and zero-tolerance for crooks is my creed. :D
 
The way I look at it is, none of us can call Sears, or JC Penneys, etc, and tell them to ship an item, and you'll just get the check/MO off today, or tomorrow. They flat wouldn't do it.

The Knifemaker is the same as the store. If a person wants the knife, they send payment first. That's just the way it works in the business world.
You are the manufacturer/supplier. Get your $$ before you send the merchandise.

I had a long time customer try to stiff me once with the "OK, I sent the MO out this AM, go ahead and send the knife"routine. Something in his voice made me leery, and I didn't ship. Amazingly:rolleyes: , the MO never showed up. When I called the guy on it, he says, hmmm, Ill have the Post office track it and send a replacement if it's lost.
How the heck do you track an envelope??

The guy had turned into a scammer, and I cut him, his brother in law, and best friend off, completely.

I hate flakes, and won't have anything to do with them.:eek: :mad:

BTW, I don't take $$ up front. I finish the knife, notify the buyer, get the $$, and THEN send it.;)
 
The idea of a maker shipping anything without having received payment first is beyond me - and I'm a collector. Ed's example of a long standing customer might be the border-line case, but outside of this, I don't think anyone should do anything like this, and quite frankly, I'm surprised anyone would think of accepting to those terms.

Nowadays with PayPal, there are ways to get payment virtually instantly across. All the guy needs is a credit or bank card.

JD
 
I have been taken on 3 knives, and chalked it up to the cost of education. Now,they pay me before they receive the knife.
 
Alan, find out what base he's stationed at and contact his base commander.
I guarentee you'll get your money or your knife back faster than any other way you can imagine!
 
Alan, if you know the military installation he is assigned to (assuming he is regular military, not reserves or National Guard), they have a locator. Find out his military unit, down to the "Company" level. Call his company commander and explain the situation. He will get all over the guy. A soldier who does not pay his bills can be disciplined, including being prevented from being promoted. You'll get his attention big time. If he is reserves or guard, the same thing applies but it may take a little longer to find his unit.

Bruce
 
Thank you all for your support and effort!!

With like 4 bases in the Colorado Spring area i have my hands full finding him. But off to the internet I Go!!!

I am going to call one more time and try to leave a message telling him that he has one last chance to pay. Then to his CO.

Thanks..

Alan
 
I had an experience where a buyer that I had sold other knives to with no problems didn't pay me for quite a while. He always had some reason and he finally paid me. Anyway I now have a couple of rules. Anything I consider "wierd" or unalterably personalized, I require half payment up front. This covers my expenses and at least a little of my time if I have to "eat" it and no one else wants it. I e-mail a picture of the finised product and then I await a check MO etc before shipping. I allow a scrutiny period for them to return the knife "unharmed". Im a pretty slow learner in affairs of money and had to be screwed repeatedly (not just in knives but loans etc to "friends") before I decided that maybe I should just always get the money up front or consider it a donation and be pleasantly suprised if I got paid. I sure the people who owe me intend to pay someday even if they have to write me a check and throw it in my grave.
 
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