Makers, Manufactures, justifying the "HI" Price for product

RX-79G said:
Um, America has Federal antitrust laws. Price fixing is illegal.[/QUOTE

Antitrust Laws are to prevent Price Fixing by separate parties in a given industry. For example, if a number of different knife companies secretly got together and agreed to sell at a certain price.
It does not refer to a manufacturer setting a price for it's own product on it's own. In that case the manufacturer is simply taking the entire risk of it's own pricing strategy, and may end up with
good or bad results.
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KenHash said:
RX-79G said:
Um, America has Federal antitrust laws. Price fixing is illegal.[/QUOTE

Antitrust Laws are to prevent Price Fixing by separate parties in a given industry. For example, if a number of different knife companies secretly got together and agreed to sell at a certain price.
It does not refer to a manufacturer setting a price for it's own product on it's own. In that case the manufacturer is simply taking the entire risk of it's own pricing strategy, and may end up with
good or bad results.
Click to expand...
If a number of retailers all agree to sell a particular product at the same price, that's the same thing. The manufacturer in that case is causing the collusion between retailers through coercion, so they are usually the one held responsible. Who organizes the fix isn't important - it is still fixing if Oakley Blades are $60 at every retailer but Ray Ban prices are set by the market.
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Anti-trust laws exist to promote competition amongst sellers. The current zt and bm nonsense is EXACTLY what these laws are intended to stop. If bm, zt, and crk want to fix prices they have to sell directly to consumers.....that would be perfectly legal. They don't want that because of the increased cost. By having the sellers fix the price and do all the distribution they have their cake and eat it too.
 
RX-79G said:
KenHash said:
If a number of retailers all agree to sell a particular product at the same price, that's the same thing. The manufacturer in that case is causing the collusion between retailers through coercion, so they are usually the one held responsible. Who organizes the fix isn't important - it is still fixing if Oakley Blades are $60 at every retailer but Ray Ban prices are set by the market.
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No what you are describing is collusion and price fixing among parties who otherwise would be competitors and would be illegal under Anti Trust Laws. One company setting it's own price is not. You can't accuse a company of colluding with itself, and it is not it's own competitor. So it is not the "same thing". Correct that who organizes the price fix s not important, but who implements is makes the difference.
The only time that your argument "may" be applicable is if one parent company owns several smaller wholly owned companies which exist as entirely independent entities.
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hudak said:
Anti-trust laws exist to promote competition amongst sellers. The current zt and bm nonsense is EXACTLY what these laws are intended to stop. If bm, zt, and crk want to fix prices they have to sell directly to consumers.....that would be perfectly legal. They don't want that because of the increased cost. By having the sellers fix the price and do all the distribution they have their cake and eat it too.
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Are retailers subject to Anti-Trust laws? And if so, is there evidence to prosecute it?
 
Yawn yawn yawn. ZT just dropped a full titanium framelock flipper on bearings made in the USA for a street price of $160...
 
RX-79G said:
Um, America has Federal antitrust laws. Price fixing is illegal.
Click to expand...

KenHash said:
Antitrust Laws are to prevent Price Fixing by separate parties in a given industry. For example, if a number of different knife companies secretly got together and agreed to sell at a certain price.
It does not refer to a manufacturer setting a price for it's own product on it's own. In that case the manufacturer is simply taking the entire risk of it's own pricing strategy, and may end up with
good or bad results.
Click to expand...

Right. There needs to be a conspiracy between the maker and the seller. It needs to benefit both parties. BM and ZT are dictating the price and the sellers are not happy with it. Sellers want the competition. If they don't sell at the price dictated by the maker, they are out. Certainly far from collusion or conspiracy. BM at least is making no more money so they are not being benefited. True price fixing works because buyers have no other options, so this is what anti-trust is meant to stop, and is what would stand up in court. But there are plenty of other options for knives out there. If we were talking about the only source for knives, it would be much different.

If it is unclear whether it is price fixing, then guess what, it isn't price fixing.
 
GronK said:
The price is only outrageous if no one pays it.
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Seller sets price, market set price an item will sell for. Those who work 9-5, 40 hours a week, with a full benefits package. If you nerver had a business. IMHO have zero IDEA what pride of ownership really means.

Owner is the last one to get any pay if company is in the BLACK.
 
"Um, this is still America bud. A maker is free to charge whatever the hell they want for a knife. It is their choice. If a retailer does not want to honor a Manufacturers price then that Manufacturer can simply not sell the dealer any more knives. I think you might be miss understanding what free market refers to, IE government intervention. If it really goes badly for the Maker then the Free Market will adjust itself."

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Really? So then, what you are telling me..and everyone else, is that retailers can't sell a product over MSRP?

The manufacturer sells a retailer a product. Done. What the retailer sells it for after that is, or should be, irrelevant. Free market means much more than freedom from Government intervention. It means letting the market work to set price/value. I have no problem with a retailer charging whatever the market will bear. What I do have a problem with is the maker telling the buyer/retailer what he can sell the product for that he has bought/paid for.

It would be like, no is exactly like, me selling you a used knife and telling you "you can't re-sell that knife for xxxxx amount." You'd tell me I was crazy as hell.
 
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I'm glad I don't have to walk for miles everyday to stand in line for food and water that may, or may not be there.
I'm glad I've never seen abject poverty in this country.
I'm glad I can afford incredible luxury items like new folding knives.

Just thinking out loud......
 
Begg just released a Bodega just like the original with a few tweaks, $1475. They only made 30 and they sold out quick. Thats almost 45000 for 30 knives, it doesn't seem right but they sold out quickly so they are worth it to someone. Its all about perspective i suppose.
 
evanPGH said:
lol, was just gonna say that. :thumbup:
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I was just gonna say that Rx and Cray should take their arguement somewhere else so we can stay on track, lol. sorry gents... couldnt resist.

Devils advocate here, but after all is said and done I might make $10 per hour on one of my user knives and i don't see that as ripping off anyone. I don't do this for a living, but if i did I would damn sure want to make more than someone at McDonalds does for my handywork or I would find a new vocation so i would have to charge a fair bit more. Yes it might cost $50 for materials, but knives don't make themselves and people need to be paid. Now i totally agree that some charge outrageous prices, but if people paid me $1000 for a knife on a regular basis do you think i would go back to charging $80?
 
sirupatespecial said:
"Um, this is still America bud. A maker is free to charge whatever the hell they want for a knife. It is their choice. If a retailer does not want to honor a Manufacturers price then that Manufacturer can simply not sell the dealer any more knives. I think you might be miss understanding what free market refers to, IE government intervention. If it really goes badly for the Maker then the Free Market will adjust itself."

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Really? So then, what you are telling me..and everyone else, is that retailers can't sell a product over MSRP?

The manufacturer sells a retailer a product. Done. What the retailer sells it for after that is, or should be, irrelevant. Free market means much more than freedom from Government intervention. It means letting the market work to set price/value. I have no problem with a retailer charging whatever the market will bear. What I do have a problem with is the maker telling the buyer/retailer what he can sell the product for that he has bought/paid for.

It would be like, no is exactly like, me selling you a used knife and telling you "you can't re-sell that knife for xxxxx amount." You'd tell me I was crazy as hell.
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I guess you missed most of what I said. The retailer can sell the knife for whatever they want as well. The manufacturer can also choose which dealers they will sell to. If the dealer doesn't sell the knife for what the maker is asking them to then the maker can just not sell them anymore knives to resell. If I sell you a knife and ask you not to resell it for whatever and you do, I can simply choose not to sell you anymore knives.

I don't think this is a good business practice but a manufacturer has a right to do it.
 
It's easy to see those that have zero business experience. Very few people are aware of how difficult it is to own/operate a business in 2015. Every year there are more taxes, restrictions, liabilities, expectations, etc. for businesses. The Federal Reserve devalues the USD, making it worth less each year - resulting in rising prices. Then you have taxes like Obamacare that eat into overhead and payroll. Credit card fees, a declining economy, distorted markets, etc., etc.. There are MANY, MANY variables that factor into cost/price of products that the vast majority of people know nothing about. You can't blame them, or get angry with them - not easy, but you just have to help them to see reality as it really is.

It's nice to see other folks out there that understand things are not getting any easier. In 2015, there are more US businesses going under than there are being created. That's the first time that's happened in some 35 years. Some food for thought.
 
hudak said:
Anti-trust laws exist to promote competition amongst sellers. The current zt and bm nonsense is EXACTLY what these laws are intended to stop. If bm, zt, and crk want to fix prices they have to sell directly to consumers.....that would be perfectly legal. They don't want that because of the increased cost. By having the sellers fix the price and do all the distribution they have their cake and eat it too.
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They do sell directly to consumers. If dealers don't want to charge what these companies ask than the companies don't have to sell to the dealers.

rustyrazor said:
I was just gonna say that Rx and Cray should take their arguement somewhere else so we can stay on track, lol. sorry gents... couldnt resist.

Devils advocate here, but after all is said and done I might make $10 per hour on one of my user knives and i don't see that as ripping off anyone. I don't do this for a living, but if i did I would damn sure want to make more than someone at McDonalds does for my handywork or I would find a new vocation so i would have to charge a fair bit more. Yes it might cost $50 for materials, but knives don't make themselves and people need to be paid. Now i totally agree that some charge outrageous prices, but if people paid me $1000 for a knife on a regular basis do you think i would go back to charging $80?
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Um, okay. Those comments were 3 days ago. But I do agree that makers can charge whatever they want. Don't like the price, don't buy the product. There are plenty of choices in what knives to buy.
 
It's not overpriced if they sell out, consumers are to blame for prices, if no one buys the product the company either lowers the price, or goes out of business.

Honestly with the prices we see people paying for "mid-tech" production knives, and limited edition production knives, I'm surprised we have not seen prices go up more. ZT and Spyderco have proven that knife nuts will pay crazy amounts for limited edition production knives. Custom makers that are building "mid-tech" knives most of which are really just production knives are charging $400-600 (and in some cases double that) and selling out in minutes (sometimes seconds) when they put a new batch out.

With that kind of demand it's no surprise prices continue to climb, we're honestly lucky that prices have not gone up more, as sad as that sounds. There are still really great knives that are great values though, you just have to look for them.
 
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