Makers, whats your policy on refunds?

G

godogs57

Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
782
Approaching 3750 knives made and have never had this happen to me fortunately, until now. A Guy ordered a knife of my design with several modifications. He wanted the blade a quarter inch longer. No problem. He wanted some far out glow in the dark type handle with micarta pins. Ok, if you say so, no problem. He wanted a left hand sheath made of distressed leather. No problem...it’s his knife.

Long story short, he gets it and then contacts me saying he doesn’t like it, adding he had no issues with workmanship, design, execution, etc....now that he saw it, he just plain doesn’t like what he asked me to build for him.

It kinda pissed me off that, after several change ups from my basic design by him, he wants his money back. Part of me says “ Hell no, I built what you asked for” and the other part of me said “If you don’t like it, by all means send it back and I’ll give you your $ back”. I ended up telling him to send it back, as I’d hate for him to have a knife of mine and not be happy.

What is the Blade Forum’s Illuminati’s thoughts?
 
godogs57 said:
Part of me says . . . and the other part of me said
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Fortunately, I have yet to come across this, but I could see falling anywhere in the spectrum depending on how much communication/approval of the details was done at each step. If (and I'm not suggesting that anyone do this) one were to make sketches and/or send pictures of material choices at each step (grinding, shaping, sheath, etc), before and after, and got approval, then I'd probably feel:
godogs57 said:
“Hell no, I built what you asked for”
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but politely apologize and offer a refund.

But if the back and forth was as brief as your synopsis (and I'm not suggesting it was), then I'd probably just think:
godogs57 said:
“If you don’t like it, by all means send it back and I’ll give you your $ back”.
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or offer to do another one, using the above tactics of getting approval at each step to make sure it's what the customer wants and not be able to say, "that's not what I thought it would be...." after I got the original back so that I could try to re-sell.
 
Give him the money back and move on with your life

why have a customer who’s unhappy...

Every once in awhile we get a customer and you can kind of just sense that you’re not gonna be able to make him happy and he’s asking for too much and then somehow you have to gently let him know to back off

obviously the time has come and gone so it’s best to just let him go

now let me give u the customer side perspective as I used to be one. From a famous well-to-do kitchen knife maker I ordered a knife a few years ago and we had a great conversation and he built it and came to me. But a knife in the hand is very different than the pictures.

If it’s thick behind the edge it doesn’t cut well and the handle design is uncomfortable , I don’t care how famous and well-to-do he is ...I’m not gonna be happy with it.

I contacted him with a long letter explaining why I was unhappy and asked him if I could exchange it for another knife and I would be happy to pay more.

The response was - send the knife back and I’ll refund your money

very few customers reject knives even if they want to and very few customers tell the honest truth because Knifemakers get butt hurt too easily

my policy is that if The customer is unhappy and they want a refund...they get it. One knife doesn’t make or break me
 
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When I make a custom knife, I require a non-refundable deposit to cover materials and other costs.
It's usually $100. I can sell the knife to someone else, original customer understands he will lose the deposit.
The deposit stops the "tire kickers."
You don't want unhappy customers.
 
I do not take deposits. I do not make a knife I can't sell. That said, I did have a customer ask me to make changes to a design of mine. I suggested modifications to what he was requesting so that it made for a stronger design and more in line with my quality standards. I made him the knife he wanted. At the time of delivery he starts complaining about scratches in the finish (referring to the fine hand-pulled 800X finish) and explaining about his medical bills, etc. No problem. I immediately canceled the order and two days later it was sold. All my knives have a 10 day inspection period. The knife may be returned for refund of purchase price for any reason or no reason, as long it is in the condition they received the knife (minus shipping of course). Don't make knives you can't sell. If a customer wants pinwheels and sparklers, fine, if that's the kind of work you normally do. If the customer wants details that are outside of your comfort zone (stylistically speaking) be polite and suggest another maker that can serve them better. Refund the guy his money and mount that knife on the wall in your shop where you can see it well to remind yourself never to do that again. Your reputation is worth far more than a single knife.

Hey, 3750 happy customers, not too shabby!
 
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I would consider the customers knife a full custom. In my experience custom products do not get refunded as they are built to the customer's specs and are a one-off. I would give my apologies to the customer but refuse a refund as it is a specialized, niche, piece.
 
I had it happen way early in my career. My dry cleaner guy is a big fisherman. He wanted a 12” filet knife for tuna and marlin. I was challenged to grind so large a blade. I went to him for all the color choices. When I delivered he kept it overnight and when I saw him the next day he returned it. I still have it and I admit that I would never sell something like that one. What was vexing is that he kept insisting on me making it. Bothered me about it every time I was one the store. He didn’t even try it. It actually is well hardened and well engineered. I asked the forum about this, just as you did. I got great advice. Take the return but never take an order from that person again. Just dismiss him from your customer list. In today’s age of Amazon it is now normal for customers to take no responsibility. Get used to it.
 
I had a guy order a pair with red and yellow handles. I showed him multiple pics along the way, bc it was a goofy combo. When he got the knives, he didn’t like them. I offered to change the handles at my hourly rate, since I had made it exactly to his specs and with plenty of feedback, and he went for it.
 
I've never had this happen but I don't think I'd be offering a full refund if the only complaints he has are with his own materials/design choices that you executed and not complaints about HOW you executed them. The kicker here is he asked you to build him a knife no one else will buy. Sounds here like its a balance between reputation more than anything else. You have no interest in this guy's return business regardless of outcome, I'd assume. The only damage he can do to your knifemaking would be in some way to publicly badmouth you for not accepting a BS return. Is this guy some famous knife collector or reviewer? I dont take deposits as it makes knifemaking feel too much like "work" but the flipside is if others start treating custom knife buying like buying a doorknob off amazon and returning it on a whim, some written policies might be in order.

If i were fulltime I'd have policies on all this. I generally weed out "problems" because their interactions are usually abnormal in some way.
 
HSC /// said:
Give him the money back and move on with your life

why have a customer who’s unhappy...
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What about happy knife maker ?
BTW he is not customer anymore if he return knife and ask for refund .
I see this case like this.................you go to the paint shop to have your car repainted .You pick up paint you want and when job is done you don t like that paint? GTFO !!
 
Natlek said:
What about happy knife maker ?
BTW he is not customer anymore if he return knife and ask for refund .
I see this case like this.................you go to the paint shop to have your car repainted .You pick up paint you want and when job is done you don t like that paint? GTFO !!
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It's a fair point...everyone is different, you and I would handle it differently obviously.

Btw, I used to be in the auto collision business, we had 3 shops.
Early on we did a restore and paint on an old truck for about $4,750 (this was year 2004)
when the customer came to pickup, inspect and pay, I knew he was never going to be satisfied.
He knew the mayor and he was going to file a complaint with the Bureau of Automotive Repair blah blah blah.
He was bitching and moaning and arguing and causing a scene. Long story short, I confirmed with my partner and we agreed to let him go. He had handed me cash. I told him we could not satisfy him and to take his truck. I put the cash on the counter for him to take and drove his truck off our lot onto the street. And moved on with my life. Never heard from him again and that was just fine with me.
 
I really think, with a customer as described in the OP, you're screwed regardless of what you do.

If you give him a refund, and he returns for you to make him another knife, and you refuse, he'll bad mouth you.
If he returns, and you make him another knife, he'll more likely than not return it, expecting a refund, because you gave him a refund the first time.
If you don't give him a refund, he'll bad mouth you.

Bottom line. Do what helps YOU sleep at night. The rest will take care of itself.
 
Ron Raducanu said:
I really think, with a customer as described in the OP, you're screwed regardless of what you do.

If you give him a refund, and he returns for you to make him another knife, and you refuse, he'll bad mouth you.
If he returns, and you make him another knife, he'll more likely than not return it, expecting a refund, because you gave him a refund the first time.
If you don't give him a refund, he'll bad mouth you.

Bottom line. Do what helps YOU sleep at night. The rest will take care of itself.
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Ron , you should not be that much afraid if someone bad mouth you .... If you do your part of job right .
You can bad mouth me here in my town as much as you want , nobody would believe you . On the contrary, everyone will laugh at you . Because I do my job honestly , with quality and on time .I have had many such cases with cars and motorcycles in my car service , they all got kicked in the ass .........Nobody want customers who do not keep their word !
 
Natlek said:
Ron , you should not be that much afraid if someone bad mouth you .... If you do your part of job right .
You can bad mouth me here in my town as much as you want , nobody would believe you . On the contrary, everyone will laugh at you . Because I do my job honestly , with quality and on time .I have had many such cases with cars and motorcycles in my car service , they all got kicked in the ass .........Nobody want customers who do not keep their word !
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Not afraid at all!! In my line of work, people badmouth me for the craziest reasons that have nothing to do with my actual work. It's part of being in the service industry.
 
Part of my knifemaker guarantee is a seven day no questions asked return policy. As long as the knife isn't damaged or scratched it can be returned for full price minus any shipping. I wanted to cover the guy who had sudden $ or wife issues.
 
It takes some stones to ask for a bunch of specific changes and then ask for a refund simply because you don’t like the exact thing you asked for. A lot of makers ask for non-refundable deposits on custom materials for this very reason.
Best case you can get it back and sell to somebody else, worse case you knock the handles off, make it look like one of your regular pieces, and then sell it.

As for whether I’d give a full refund myself? I suppose I’d probably accommodate the customer the first time. After that, it’s up to them to get their own money back on secondary. It’s a “fool me once” kind of thing.
 
godogs57 said:
Approaching 3750 knives made and have never had this happen to me fortunately, until now. A Guy ordered a knife of my design with several modifications. He wanted the blade a quarter inch longer. No problem. He wanted some far out glow in the dark type handle with micarta pins. Ok, if you say so, no problem. He wanted a left hand sheath made of distressed leather. No problem...it’s his knife.

Long story short, he gets it and then contacts me saying he doesn’t like it, adding he had no issues with workmanship, design, execution, etc....now that he saw it, he just plain doesn’t like what he asked me to build for him.

It kinda pissed me off that, after several change ups from my basic design by him, he wants his money back. Part of me says “ Hell no, I built what you asked for” and the other part of me said “If you don’t like it, by all means send it back and I’ll give you your $ back”. I ended up telling him to send it back, as I’d hate for him to have a knife of mine and not be happy.

What is the Blade Forum’s Illuminati’s thoughts?
Click to expand...


Give em back his money and no more orders from him. You've also learned a lesson here that took me several kicks in the head before I learned it. This is Horsewright's 20th year in business. Not just on the knife side but the leather and clothing side too; EVERY time ya stray from your deal, your patterns, your models and the customer says: just a little here, or its easy just do it just like this, or I've got this idea and you are gonna sell a bunch of them. Run away, quickly. Cause every time we haven't followed that advice I'm giving ya, it bit us, every time. Just don't do it. Your pushing 4,000 knives. You've earned the right not to take custom orders build what ya want. If you've sold that many knives obviously you are building what folks want. Keep doing that.
 
Just a note from the moderator - You do not have the membership status to discuss selling knives and customers. I am going to leave this discussion going, but refrain from posting about or mentioning sales and customers in the future.

The advice from everyone is good. Because this topic is relevant for other makers to read and make comments about, I am leaving it open.
 
I've made a whopping 11 knives so far but for the ones I've sold I have had zero issue selling them. I've learned in this trade never to say never but I dont ever forsee taking custom orders from customers. I feel like the limited success I've had so far and where I ultimately want to be in this is going to be because of MY work and MY vision for the knives I build. If I were in your shoes I would just issue the refund and try to sell the knife. The internet is a powerful tool both for and against us. You dont need the negativity out there that a guy like this can bring you. But I would be done taking requests like this at a minimum if not altogether.
 
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