Making a file knife, short tutorial

OUTSTANDING TUTORIAL!

I am in the process of making a file knife. It is my first (real) knife. This is a huuuge help for a newbie like me.
This would be a great sticky btw.

The problem I'm having with mine is getting my bevels. At this time, I only have a bench grinder, angle grinder, and a file jig I rigged up to make my bevels.
I've been practicing on scrap metal to learn getting bevels "even". My file jig does a fantastic job, but filing a file is a little disconcerting. That metal is really hard to cut down.
Anyone have any tips how I can cut my bevels without a belt grinder (don't have one), bench grinder (with a flap wheel), or angle grinder (with a flap wheel), and just using my file jig?
Would it help to heat the edge to soften it just a little?
Any help would be greatly appreciated....and thnx in advance.
 
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You simply put your file (assumed it is a quality one, not case hardened) in the kitchen oven, and let them sit for 1 hour to 450-475 degrees, let them cool, then repeat another time. You should end with a file 58-60 Hrc or less, just the right hardness to make a knife from it. This is the key: when you grind, be extra-carefoul to not overheat the blade (I put it in water every stroke I make on the wheel). You end up with your hardened blade, no other heat-treating process required. If the blade is not too long and not intended to be abused, it's fine.

I found my answer...silly me.
 
did you take a look through the WiP stickied thread?
 
'work in progress'- look here
 
OUTSTANDING TUTORIAL!

I am in the process of making a file knife. It is my first (real) knife. This is a huuuge help for a newbie like me.
This would be a great sticky btw.

The problem I'm having with mine is getting my bevels. At this time, I only have a bench grinder, angle grinder, and a file jig I rigged up to make my bevels.
I've been practicing on scrap metal to learn getting bevels "even". My file jig does a fantastic job, but filing a file is a little disconcerting. That metal is really hard to cut down.
Anyone have any tips how I can cut my bevels without a belt grinder (don't have one), bench grinder (with a flap wheel), or angle grinder (with a flap wheel), and just using my file jig?
Would it help to heat the edge to soften it just a little?
Any help would be greatly appreciated....and thnx in advance.


You need to anneal the file otherwise you will ruin your good files trying to cut it, plus it will take forever as I'm pretty sure you have already found.

A great place for you to read through would be the 'stickies' in the "Shop Talk - BladeSmith Questions and Answers" subform (click on the link to go to that subforum). That is the subforum to ask questions about making knives and that sticky goes through most of the general and basic info you need to begin making knives.

Just to make it easier here is the direct link to the stickies thread that you would greatly benefit from reading completely through: http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/sticky-threads-all-the-good-info-you-want-in-one-place.1052730/

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/shop-talk-bladesmith-questions-and-answers.741/

~Paul
My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)
 
Thanks Paul.

I heated the file in the oven at 450° for an hour, then let it cool over night. The next night, I heated the file in the oven again at 450° for an hour and a half and let cool over night.
Since then, I haven't been able to get in my shop to do anything with it. I'm on-call at the moment, and a little tied up. I do plan on trying to get some work done on it this evening after work.
Again, thanks everyone.
 
No problem :)


I'm not sure if you are aware of this, but just in case you aren't, heating up the file to 450F only tempered it back to a good working hardness for a knife from its more brittle state as it was as a file.

If you don't have a belt grinder or sander of any sort to do the stock removal with while being able to keep it from overheating while doing so, you will need to Anneal it, which is much different from Tempering. Since you are trying to do all the stock removal using a file, you'll need to anneal it so the file can actually cut into the steel properly. I have heard several guys on Youtube over the years who have made file-knife tutorials improperly use the word anneal to define tempering, which is possibly why you might be getting them mixed up as well, which it sound like you might be. Tempering is what you do AFTER quenching the blade to harden it, which draws back the hardness (brittleness) a bit and imparts some toughness into the steel. In this state it is too hard to do any real amount of filing on.

To anneal is to bring the steel to its softened state, to where it can be easily filed, milled, drilled, machined etc. To do this you want to heat it up to critical temp (just above non-magnetic ~1500F) and let it cool very slowly for hours by burying it in vermiculite or the like. That is the easy way to go about it and how many hobbyists do it, although it may not be the best, most proper metallurgical way to do it. I think a sub-critical anneal is best to do when using higher carbon steels above ~0.8% C such as what good files are made of. The way I do this without a access to a proper heat treating oven, is by heating it in my forge to a dull red around 1250F (a dull red in the dark or in a shadow, not a dull red in the daylight etc.) then letting it cool to a black heat which is around 900F, which is still plenty hot but it lost all of its color (again in the dark or in a dark shadow), and then I quench it in water. I then repeat this step about 3 more times. I believe this has been referred to around here as a "redneck sub-critical anneal" lol.

I hope this isn't too confusing. This is one of the reasons I referred you to the stickies, since it contains a lot of this type of info and other basics that you need to (or rather should) know when starting to make knives. Once you get some time it would be really helpful to read through those 'stickies' I gave the link to, and If you still have any questions after reading through those you can just start a new thread in the Shop Talk sub-forum and ask away ;) . I hope this was helpful.

~Paul
My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)
 
I just read a pretty detailed tutorial on annealing, and quenching.
You're absolutely correct, Paul. The YouTube videos I watched had me completely backwards.
I have my head on straight today. I'll be getting off work a little earlier today, so I should have some time to work with my little project.
Will a small propane torch get the file up to about 1500°?
 
Glad to hear I was able to help straighten that out a bit for ya.

(edit: I just realized you asked if a small propane "torch" should get hot enough. I read that to be a small propane "forge", which is the reason for the answer I give below. But no, a propane torch alone won't get it hot enough, although it should if there is a forge built around it ;) ) You can check out the very first video posted on my Youtube channel that shows my first forge made from a paint can using "kaowool" and refractory cement. There is a link to my channel at the end of each of my comments under my name.)

As far as a small propane forge getting hot enough I would say most likely yes, it should. Of course it depends on how well it's insulated and how well the burner works that you're using for it. Even a properly made soup can forge should get over 1500F, but it's definitely not ideal for getting and maintaining an even heat. The main things you want to keep an eye out for while heating the file up would be to not overheat it, and getting an even heat along the entire file. Some guys will anneal the blade end first and the the tang second (or vise versa), as it's easier to keep a more even heat along a shorter length. It really helps to keep moving the entire piece slowly in and out of the forge and under the direct flame in the forge. Make sure to keep checking with a magnet (a small telescoping pickup magnet works well as you can test the steel while it's still in the forge, but any will do), which will tell you when you've reached about 1414F, which is when the iron in the steel becomes non-magnetic. Once you reach non-magnetic, just heat it a bit more (but not too much!) to reach the ~1500 critical temp.



You want to try your best to at least avoid reaching 1600F and above as that will cause the grain to grow to a large size, which can/will cause the knife to be more brittle and cause the edge to chip easier, even at a lesser overall hardness than a blade with nice fine (almost 'silky' looking) graincstructure. This is where thermal cycling the steel comes in (such as after forging a blade), which allows you to reduce the size of the grain with successively descending heats. Thermal cycling usually goes something like this: heat to 1600F air cool to black, heat to 1550 air cool to black, heat to 1500 air cool to black heat to 1450 air cool to black. The grain condition of quality steel files is already excellent and is why if you are just doing stock removal, it can be better to just temper it back and grind/shape while keeping it cool with water. But you need practice and the proper tools to do that.

You can get a good look at the size and texture of the grain by clamping about the file about an inch from the top in a vise and breaking that end off with a hammer. You can also heat up the end of a scrap file in your forge to as hot as you can, quench it in water and then do the same thing again. This will show you firstly what you DO want the grain to look like, and secondly what you DON'T want the grain to look like. Here is a Youtube video by Lewis Razors that gives you an idea of what that all looks like:


I do apologize for these long comments as well as for getting a bit technical, but sometimes it's hard to explain one step without explaining 'why', or explaining another. I would suggest first practicing on some scraps of mild steel that are similar in size to your file (along with a magnet) to give you an idea of how hot non-magnetic is as well as give you some practice keeping an even heat along the entire piece.

I don't mean this in a rude way, but it is very likely you will make some mistakes a first, but that is how we all learn! As long as you don't set unrealistic standards for you first few knives and make sure to finish each one you begin you will be good. Learning how to fix/correct your mistakes is probably the most valuable skill one can learn in knife making.

Let me know how it goes. If you have any other questions I will try my best to answer them. Take care

~Paul
My YT Channel Lsubslimed
... (It's been a few years since my last upload)
 
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That was awesome.
I'm trying to take it all in too fast, I think. I've learn a fair amount already, and I know there is still a lot I need to know. It will eventually all fall into place with time. I just find this all so intriguing, it's hard to just stop, step back, and take my time.
After the information you gave me previously, my dad helped me with the annealing, since he has the forge, and I got my bevels cut in last night. I finally got to try out my file jig I rigged up, and it works pretty good....tiring, but it works.
Once I get off work today, I'm going straight to my shop and work on it more.

Thanks again for your help, and the impressive read.
 
My first time on the site I have a question I see a lot of talk about tempering on the files due to being handicapped I do most of my work in my chair using stones and a Dremel for short period of time never heating the file hotter than I can hold it I have made almost two dozen this way with no trouble so far am i setting myself up for failure this is kind of therapy to keep my hands in mind occupied due to my disability so don't make fun of me everybody I do it because I was told I can't thank you very much for any assistance
 
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