Making a post anvil? With video WOW

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I dint know enough about forging to have a good enough opinion .for instance i dont know why mass under the hammer is so important if rebound doesnt mean anything.
But i think yoi should dial it back JG in my opinion your taking this too personal and what could be a good thread and discussion will likely get closed by the mods . I respect the hell out of JT and dont want my comments to misconstrue that.


But back to the original question . Just go to oldworld anvils they have these
 
I dint know enough about forging to have a good enough opinion .for instance i dont know why mass under the hammer is so important if rebound doesnt mean anything.
But i think yoi should dial it back JG in my opinion your taking this too personal and what could be a good thread and discussion will likely get closed by the mods . I respect the hell out of JT and dont want my comments to misconstrue that.


But back to the original question . Just go to oldworld anvils they have these

I didn’t “dial it” up in the first place. You can take that up with the guy you “respect the hell out of.” I’m not taking anything personal, I called spade a spade. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don’t want the thread to get closed either. I want to have a simple thread about “making a post anvil.” That is what I started the thread for, SPECIFICALLY. I posted the video as an example of the anvil I want to make. I didn’t mention anything about rebound. I DID think it was cool how long that ball bearing bounced. I’ve never seen one bounce like that for so long. Hence the “with video WOW.” But I made no comment or assertion about it.

So please, let’s just talk about how to harden the block of 1045. Would 4140 be better? Which would be cheaper? Water quench? Brine? Oil? Spray water on the face?
 
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From a post I made a dozen years ago on the "Blacksmith's Virtual Junkyard". As true today as it was then:

You're forcing me to get into an explanation I've been avoiding. No problem, just have trouble explaining things sometimes. Well, here goes anyway. A lot of the following is pretty basic physics, but you probably never took the time to think through what is really going on in hammering.

The first thing we need to look at is why a hammer bounces off the anvil. We have all had the experience of striking the anvil, either intentionally or unintentionally. What happens? The hammer bounces back like a super ball, right? Why? Steel is a very elastic material. It can be deformed within certain limits (known as the materials elastic limit) and it will return to it's original shape. This is easier to imagine if you picture a coil spring (like a valve spring) mounted on a handle so it looks something like a hand hammer. Now, when you hit the anvil you can visualize how the end that contacts the anvil will stop and the other end will continue a little ways thus compressing the spring. Once all the energy has been absorbed by the spring, it quickly returns to it's original length pushing it away from the anvil.

Now, by stretching your mind a little, you will be able to understand that the EXACT same thing is happening to your hand hammer when it strikes the anvil! The face of your hammer stops when it contacts the anvil and the rest of the hammerhead continues downward for a moment, compressing the hammerhead. Of course it returns to it's original shape real fast, pushing it back up. Very little energy is lost in this process. A little heat where the two meet and a little internal heating of the hammerhead is the only loss.

If you can believe all of that we can move on to the anvil. In the above explanation I only considered what went on in the hammer. There's more. When the hammer strikes the anvil, it also compresses. The two compress inversely by their mass. If the place where you hit the anvil compresses, what happens to the rest of the anvil? It resists moving in proportion to its mass. When the top of the anvil springs back to its original shape down equally. If the anvil were made of a material with a low elastic limit it would permanently deform. Lead has a low elastic limit, but is malleable; thus it would deform and return little energy. Concrete has a low elastic limit, but is not malleable and will crumble.

What happens when we put a hot piece of steel in between? All three are compressed according to their mass and malleability and all three expand according to their elasticity. The hot steel has high malleability and low elasticity. As the piece cools down you can feel it losing malleability and gaining elasticity. Every time you hit a piece of hot iron it receives two blows. The first when you hit the piece and the second when the hammer and anvil return to shape. This all happens so fast as to seem like one blow.

What does all this have to do with your question? Be patient! I'm getting to that. Relating all this to a power hammer we can now understand a little more about what's going on. When a power hammer hits the anvil all of the same things happen. The ram of a power hammer must be elastic just like the hand hammer to get the best effect. If you have ever used a lead filled hand hammer you can understand why a lead filled power hammer ram is a bad idea. Concrete filled power hammer anvils are another BAD idea. Somebody ought to make a concrete filled hand hammer anvil to show these people just how bad the idea is.

Is concrete UNDER the anvil worthwhile? A qualified, yes! If the anvil has sufficient mass and a larger enough contact surface to prevent damage to the concrete. The top part of the anvil can compress while the bottom and the concrete resist. As concrete has a low elasticity it is necessary to have a large surface of contact. Putting elastic materials like rubber or wood in the interface help to make a better joint but rebound too slowly to help with the forging. Concrete blocks are most effective in isolating the shock from the surroundings.

Hope I didn't bore you guys too much, I skipped over some, might add to it later.


Hot this from youtube

 
That guys arguement is “horse poo-poo” same as your facepalms. He assumes that the argument EVERYONE is making about rebound is that the ball bearing test makes the hammer bounce back up and makes for less work. That’s the dumbest shit I’ve ever heard lol. I’ve never heard anyone make that arguement. But of course he likely surrounds himself with idiots, who he can belittle(like with facepalms)to build himself up and purge is inadequacies. The whole point of a ball bearing test is to demonstrate the level of hardness. It’s basic physics that smashing a soft material in between two HARD pieces of material is going to smash it out. The harder those two materials are, the more it smashes it out. Therefore, a ball bearing test that shows more rebound, shows that the anvil is harder, making for a better(as long as it’s not brittle) surface to smash metal on. Otherwise no one would even harden the face of anvils

Facepalm
First off Trent is a very experanced professional blacksmith that does this full time. I’m not trying to start a fight I’m trying to explain anvil rebound and why it’s hype. Think about it. Hot steel is soft, all that matters is that the hammer and anvil are harder then the hot steel. It’s cald yeald strength. If you exceed that amount of psi then the surface becomes plastic and moves permanently aka a dent or ding. It takes energy to plastically deform the hot steel. A harder or softer anvil is not going to increase or decrease the amount of energy the hammer has. And as long as the anvil does not absorb the energy by denting then it is not consuming the energy. But if the anvil was say lead then it would becaus hot steel is harder then lead.

I’m not “hitting a hard surface.” I’M TRYING TO SMASH HOT STEEL BETWEEN TWO HARD SURFACES. Now if you don’t have anything other than patronizing, snide remarks to make buzz off and find somewhere else to build yourself up. Because it’s not happening here
 
Wow that took a long time for my post to show up. I agree with the above quote. All I’m saying is as long as your not exceeding the yeald strength of mild or soft steel then it will push back just like a hardened face.
 
But there’s a reason two hard surfaces are used in 9 out of 10 anvils. There’s a reason professionals aren’t all using rail road track anvils in cement. I’m not saying you can smash hot steel between cold soft steel and a cold HARD hammer face. But there’s a reason most people who forge don’t.

I just want to figure out how to harden a damn block of 1045 and not scald the hell out of my legs when I quench it... I didn’t mean to get into anvil hardness theory

I’m sorry to sound exasperated man. I don’t mean to direct it at you. I appreciate your insight.

I actually hand forge 52100 full time 5 days a week on a railroad track. Hard surface is nice because it deforms slower but mass is what is important. For my thin blades the shape of my railroad track is actually very nice for forging bevels and keeping things straight, I have to be careful not to gouge my work surface though, just work hot on a hot surface.
-Trey
 
Wow that took a long time for my post to show up. I agree with the above quote. All I’m saying is as long as your not exceeding the yeald strength of mild or soft steel then it will push back just like a hardened face.

Does 50 RC steel compress less for x joules of energy than 20 RC steel when that force is less than it's yield strength?
 
My post anvil is not hardened. I love working on it but there are differences between mine and my friend's hardened post of the same dimensions.

Pros
- my anvil is super quiet
- dings from mis-strikes are a breeze to fix
- I don't worry about edges chipping off and going balistic
- a mis-strike won't send the hammer into orbit like Thor's Mjolnir

Cons
- You do get a bit of energy loss... noticeable loss
- even light strikes will dent the anvil face and the impressions on your anvil get transferred to your work piece.

In the end... I work on my post anvil BECAUSE it isn't hardened. If I made another, I would not harden it either.
 
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