Making it easy for Dave 2: Vid Rev: Dog Bros 5 Fang Choke

Smoke · Dec 20, 1999

This tape spotlights part of the Dog Brothers grappling curriculum. Carlos Machado of the Machado brothers is brought in. The Machados being the aggressive competitive cousins of the famous Gracie family.

In the beginning of the tape we see a fight, Knauss vs. Marc Denny, a fellow DB Instructor. Denny is knocked to the ground and rolls away from Knauss, in pursuit and attacking at the same time. Why is this important? In the Rodney King incident, King allegedly used this manuever 'Folsom Pen. Roll' while on the ground. Food for thought.

Knauss starts us off by explaining the Fang Choke, one of many chokeholds using the single stick. He further explains how grappling can occur in weapons fighting and gives the floor to the intense Carlos Machado.

Machado teaches two techniques for when a fighter is on his back.
The Juji Gatame Armbar/Arm lock and the Guillotine chokehold.
Machado discusses keeping close contact with one's opponent b/c unlike other fights, the man on top has a weapon.
After discussing reversing( getting out from the bottom and to the top), two more techniques are shown; a figure Four armlock and the Juji Gatame from the top.
The last technique involves evading a blow from the bottom and maneuvering behind the opponent to apply a chokehold.

Counters to Fang Choke are next. Machado teaches two techniques; the armbar from previously and the hammerlock. Machado gives tips on proper positioning and maneuvering, moving smooth as a snake.

Fights ending in grappling are next, 4+ fights showcasing skills from the various Dog Bros and opponents with Marc Denny and Eric Knaus giving color commentary. Grappling training improving the skills of the fighter. We also see Rigan Machado spar against Knauss. Machado 'wins' by shoulder lock. This was not a poor fight but both a beginning fight and learning experience.

Balancing it out is 'Thoughts on Countering Grappling' where Denny and Knauss give their thoughts on this topic. More fight footage starring Arlan 'Salty Dog' Sanford are next, Sanford a master of hitting while moving backward.

The interview section starts with DB fighter/student Dr. Mark "Shark Dog" Lawson who answers questions on the effect of stick strikes on the body. Lawson brings an anatomy book to further explain his points.

The section closes with interviews of Denny and Knauss.

Okay, this was an interesting tape. Chokes with sticks aren't new but I've haven't seen the Fang Choke in any other tape. Production quality was sharper and clearer than other Panther tapes and instruction by Machado and Knauss was very clear.

The Balance of instruction was good too, we see both the pros and cons of grappling as well as techniques that aren't overly complicated. The tape is a bit long due to fight footage and offers food for thought.
JKD/FMA and Brazilian Jujitsu people will eat this up pretty quick.

If you were on your back with someone on top of you, would you drop your stick?

Alternate review is at MAVR.
Great discount available at http://www.dogbrothers.com

[This message has been edited by Smoke (edited 20 December 1999).]

Fenris · Dec 22, 1999

I like this tape a lot. It's very practical and they keep all of the techniques simple.

If I were on my back I would definitely drop my stick because it's pretty ineffective from there. I probably would have gone into hands earlier than that if the fight went into grappling range.

Jason

Smoke · Dec 22, 1999

Jason, if you felt skilled enough to reverse the person would you still drop the stick?

Also, if you had a heavier impact weapon or a long blade would you still drop it?

Fenris · Dec 23, 1999

Smoke, I'm assuming that your question is in regards to me being on my back. I am a decent grappler, I wrestled for 7 years and I took so jiu-jitsu but at that point I would rather have two free hands and not a long stick which I really couldn't stike much with except for dacoup and punyo and could end up jamming me up.

Tirada Tirsia which is the kali I train in, emphasizes close quarters so by the time, largo, medio, and corto range had been closed I probably would have dropped the stick in favor of hands. At trapping range, hands are a lot faster and can do a lot more damage in my opinion.

If I had an edged weapon and I were on my back I would definitely retain it because it's far more manueverable and I could probably use it to get the other person off of me. Some may say that it's dangerous to use a knife while you're rolling on the ground. I just wonder how many attacks with edged weapons go to the ground in a wrestling match, especially with someone who is trained. I've seen some of the Emerson stuff with the closing in and the clinch in BJJ stuff but I don't know if this would work against a trained knife attacker. I couldn't see myself bringing a skilled knife attacker to the ground.

If I had a heavier bludgeoning weapon and I was on my back I would drop it. It would be an encumberance and I wouldn't really have the leverage to use it well.

Hands are much faster than the stick by principle so when I'm that close and the sticks arc is not as effective, I would rather use hands.

Jason

Stickgrappler · Dec 30, 1999

Hello,

Sorry for being a johnny-come-lately. Hope there is still interest in this thread.

First: I love this vid. It inspired my long-term training. Prior to watching this vid (and the DB series), I wanted to train only stickfighting skills. I've not grappled nor stickgrapple before. After watching the vid, I was amazed. It never occurred to me before that some of the DB fights would even go to grappling range. It shows with minimal armor, people in the heat of battle can take some shots, shots which I thought in my training would take the guy out. I also decided it would be more of a challenge personally if I were to train to be a stickgrappler as it required I needed good stickfighting skills, grappling skills, and stickgrappling skills.

Second: some good points were raised by Smoke and Fenris. Personally, I think I would not give up my stick prior to watching the vid with the idea of it being a help possibly with punyos. After watching the vid, I do not know, I think I would drop my stick, however, that was with the idea that I have competent grappling skills which I do not have currently, however, it seems like a more viable option than holding on to the stick, especially if I'm on the bottom. Some of the fights, the sticks were lost somehow by the top guy (usually Top Dog) but while rolling around, he actually finds one and picks it up to lay the fang on!

With regard to blades, I do not train knives/swords generally and specifically with an eye towards grappling. I probably would hold onto a knife, a sword may be too cumbersome like a stick, but it's more deadly than a stick, so perhaps I would hang onto it.

Third: since the vid came out, Guro Crafty Dog has trained with Dr. Gyi and it turns out Bando has the fang in its' Python subsystem. IIRC there's about 15 variations of it. Guro Crafty Dog showed Guro Dan I. first, and he showed some variations.

Fourth: it seemed that the fang flowed well from the head throw as the punyo is already hooked around the neck.

All-in-all, I loved the vid as I never thought of grappling during a stickfight before and it looks challenging to train.

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"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog

Smoke · Dec 31, 1999

StickG, how does it compare to Terry Gibson's stick and grappling tape?

Stickgrappler · Dec 31, 1999

Smoke,

I think you mean Marc McFann, although, Terry Gibson does show a few techniques in his Single Stick 1 IIRC.

This is not a full-blown review as I have limited time online now. An overview:

1) vid looks like it was shot in his basement - it's clear and the sound is good. IIRC it was Ewen who was assisting.

2) he shows about 30 techniques; a few I saw before, but most I didn't. some of the techs were shown in a what-if situation, i.e., he flowed from one to another in case the first one did not work. e.g., off of #1, inside deflection (aka inside sweep), snake disarm, put your stick underneath the trapped arm and with your alive hand grab the top of the stick for an armlock; if that somehow doesn't work, flow to choke/takedown by letting go of the alive hand and continue upwards to throat with stick and lever it to get choke/takedown.

3) he showed a few for each "series", that is, some for the above example's reference point, some from what he called "bundok" (sp?) which I forget what it is, have to rewatch, and other series which I forget now. Sorry. Another tech which almost all FMAers know that flowed from the above example: insert the stick between the legs and lever for a takedown. I've heard this move called "weave" before - forgot if it was Cabales Serrada or not.

4) for the most part, it was all started from standing stickgrappling. nothing like DB#5 where most of the stickgrappling was on the ground where the BJJ influence is evidenced. IMO, this is equally my most fave FMA vid as it shows nearly 30 techs. All instruction like all standard MA vids, no fights a la DB. I remember reading on the WWW somewhere he is planning on #2.

Well, how's that for a "brief" overview?

To close, I will note that Terry Gibson's Single Stick 1 showed about 4 moves IIRC, but both right and left side, not right-handed/lefthanded, i.e., what if the guy throws a left cross after a #1, and Terry Gibson flows from there doing the same technique on the opponent's left arm.

HTH.

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"...grappling happens. It just does." - Top Dog

[This message has been edited by Stickgrappler (edited 31 December 1999).]