Mammouth Ivory, or not?

3

30-30 Cal.

Joined
Jan 1, 2004
Messages
243
I don't know if counterfitting/antique'ing, etc., to make other substances look like mammouth ivory is common enough to worry about, but, I got to thinking. I bought a sweet little bowie (7.5"blade) with mammouth scales. That's what the maker told me, and I know he is utterly convinced that they are genuine (and they probably are). but, for a product that's been laying unprotected in the soil for the last 10,000 years, they look remarkably like plain old aged ivory. Yes, they have lovely hues of gold, brown, etc, but the primary color is a golden cream.

Is there any way to tell if a handle is Really mammouth ivory?

Dave
 
I believe there is a way to tell mammoth ivory from elephant ivory, I just don't know what it is. This will surely win me the award for most unhelpful response. :rolleyes: Just because the ivory doesn't show a lot of colour doesn't mean it's not ancient, however. The mastadon ivory on this Bradshaw bowie is almost uniformly white:

orig.jpg


Cheers,

Roger
 
Before mamoth ivory is used, the outer layer, the layer that has been exposed to the dirt for perhaps 10,000+years, is often "peeled" off. This leaves the inner part which is often quite pure. Sometimes, the outter layer is left it it has desirable character.

http://www.balisongcollector.com/ivory.html
 
The only way to tell for sure is to look at the ends and measure the angles of the Schreger lines. This US Fish and Wildlife site gives information on how to identify ivories. http://www.lab.fws.gov/Ivory/elephant.html
Chances are it is mammoth. At this time elephant is more expensive than mammoth. It is hard to identify by the color although most elephant is much lighter. I have seen Siberian mammoth that is as light as elephant but it is rare. I hope this helps.
 
I liked the info, but by the time the mastadon ivory gets on a knife, the lines can't be measured, too cut up. cleaned, polished, changed: unless a record of the discovery, a "chain of evidence legal approach" is taken, we don't know---the maker doesn't know (not for sure, am I right?)--isn't this whole old dead 10,000 year old thing rife for fraud? An urban myth?I'd like to think my handle is Mastadon, but any good Chinese ivory artist could do this or better.

It's a leap of faith, a statement, a though--


Dave
 
Given that you can't or won't count on the maker to look for the lines before putting the piece on the knife the only alternative is to look at the look alike alternatives with a view to eliminating them from consideration.

Modern elephant.....usually much lighter and will show surface lines as will the mastodon where shaping the handle has exposed them. Unfortunately unless you get a look at full end grain you cannot measure it.

Bone....No lines just lots of tiny holes that can be seen under a magnifying glass.

Synthetics.....no trace of lines, usually a resin based material and light sanding with very fine sandpaper will reveal distinctive fibreglass resin odour.

Walrus tusk...rings like tree rings instead of lines, definite porosity.

Narwhale tusk...rings like walrus and angular grain where twist of tusk was.

Any other possibilities?
 
There is a lot of mammoth ivory available to knife makers, I can't see any reason for anyone to want to counterfit it, elephant cost about the same or more and fossil walrus cost a lot more and the synthetics just don't look real.
You need to go to a big Knife show and look at all the mammoth ivory for sale, there were 5 or 6 mammoth ivory dealers at the Blade Show last year with all sizes of scales, lots of different colors, not much white though and prices anywhere from around $40 up to $300 per set. Also look on Ebay. Most knife makers know what kind of ivory they are using, I've been using mammoth, elephant and walrus ivory for over 14 years and each one has its own smell :) which isn't very pleasent.

Don Hanson lll
 
Hi, george,

We have never spoke or met, but I know and respect your work. It's a pleasure to correspond with you.

I suspect knife makers, not being experts, take the sellers word. Can you tell the difference between a hundred year old elephant ivory, a mastadon, or a piece chemically replicated? No, nor can any knifemaker once it's cut into slabs.

I am not saying this happens, only that a mastadon is a mastadon, ... is an elephant who just died in India five years ago.

In the long run, it doesn't matter-as I said, it's a leap of faith.
 
Don, that's what's so strange to me. I would not think mastadon ivory would be so commonly availabe. I cannot help but think that such wonderful material is rare. I don't dig it up, you don't, hardly anyone in North America, Latin America, or even Europe does, it is rare. Siberia? Sure. Tables of Mastadon for sell? Ok.

The thing is..I do not doubt you for a second It looks different, grinds and smells different, but how can a guy like me be, at least, somewhat assured that he is buying real mastadon, and not aged , old cracked, ivory? I dought if, put to the wall, you or any other Knifemaker would declare in writing the the material handle on a particular knife is guaranteed Mastadon ivory.

We will never know, but--Buyer Beware.
 
In a good year I will buy 5,000 ponds of mammoth. When the mines were running I bought 10,000 ponds in one year. I buy a fraction of what is found here in Alaska. I have heard it said that Russia produces over 200,000 pounds a year. Keep in mind only a small percentage is usable for scales. Most of the solid material goes to Hong Kong and is the most valuable. There is quite a bit of ivory coming into the US from Russia and that is keeping the price down. The best way to make sure you have the real stuff is to get to know your supplier.
 
30-30, I will put it in writing that the mammoth ivory on my knives is mammoth. There is a lot of this material coming out of the ground in Sberia, it's big business over there. I buy most of my mammoth ivory in the rough - chunks and large pieces of tusk and it looks 10,000 years old on the outside. I cut it into scales myself and I know were it comes from. I mostly use the outer bark with the colors like blues, greens and brown. I also buy scales from reputable dealers who have been in the business a long time like akivory.
You need to educate youself on this suject, it is a rare material but it is available if you know were to look. If you're around custom knives long enough you learn to tell the difference between old elephant and fossil ivorys, they do look different. I have knives with mammoth and mammoth scales on my website, take a look :)

Don Hanson lll sunfishforge.com
 
Supply and demand regulate the price.
China is buying most of the supply for carvings and paying top price.

Don
 
Like Danbo said... I paid through the nose for a custom last year... and what sold me on that particular knife was the two incredible slabs of blue mammoth ivory... that the maker then checkered in a pattern reminiscent of a set of classic 1911 slabs... :cool:
 
If you have seen enough of it mastodon Schreger lines are sharply different from modern ivory and visible in the end cut of a piece 1/8" thick or greater.

There is no reason to fake mastodon ivory inner ( the creamy white part) because it is much less expensive than mineral stained bark. The reason is simple, the outside of a 6" or 8" tusk is stained about 1/8" maximum unless cracks exist, the rest is creamy white like Roger's knife and there is a lot more inner than bark. The creamy stuff is good for scrimshaw or carving.

The acid test would be carbon 40 dating.
 
I feel reassured, Guys. Thanks for the information. At least, I can now look at the only knife I have with Mastadon scales, and know I got what I paid for.

Dave
 
RogerP said:
I believe there is a way to tell mammoth ivory from elephant ivory, I just don't know what it is. This will surely win me the award for most unhelpful response. :rolleyes: Just because the ivory doesn't show a lot of colour doesn't mean it's not ancient, however. The mastadon ivory on this Bradshaw bowie is almost uniformly white:

orig.jpg


Cheers,

Roger
Click to expand...

OK, 2 things, first, yes, I second Roger's nomination for most unhelpful response, so, that's settled... :)

Second, Roger, Bailey told me he had convinced you that 2 month old elephant ivory he used on your bowie was ancient, I didn't think you believed it until now. :)

But, let me say, I received, as a gift once, an elephant ivory tusk, just the tip portion, maybe 8" long, it has a lot of lines in it, and half of it had turned a rich brownish color, but, I am told it is definitely elephant ivory, albeit maybe 100 years old. For fossil ivory, I believe it needs to be at least 50K years old.

It's true though, my kidding Roger aside, many times you'll come across fossil ivory that happens to be very clean, and ivory (off white to cream) in color. However, somehow, even without being certain, and even when the colors are ambiguous, in most cases, you can still tell the difference.
 
You should know that regardless of what kind of ivory you get, it is still organic, and "moves". It have not had terribly good luck with ivory of any sort in the dry environment of San Diego, CA.

It shrinks for me is what I am saying, and that is not acceptable for my knife handles, so I tend to concentrate on pearl. Maybe less durable in the long run, but for collectable knives, pearl is hard to beat, and what I recommend to anyone who collects knives. There is no such thing as having too many pearl handled knives in your collection, IMHO.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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