manix blade strength

[Buzzbait]

W
Do you really think that it is that out of line for someone to want more strength. Of course not. Thus it isn't unreasonable for everyone to set their own standards. -Cliff

Easy there, partner. I have no problem with rctk1 wanting a strong tip. He can pry all he wants. I was just showing a bit of the other side of the coin. Some people don't understand than this is all a game of compromise. As you gain strength in a blade, you often lose cutting performance.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Some people don't understand than this is all a game of compromise.

That was my point, you didn't describe a compromise, you painted a picture of two divergent viewpoints. You need a certain level of strength to just cut something with the tip, I have blades for example that are so thin you can't even cut thick cardboard with the tips because they don't have the rigidity. You described a complete focus on an extreme tip point and that really leads to unrealistic profiles.

-Cliff

 

[Blop]

Oh, Buzzbait pointed rightly at the difference between most abused and most used part of the knife.

At least i am thinking of that type of tip, most often seen on production folders, maybe except the hollow ground tip of some Kershaws.

Lets have just a look at the Manix, Paramillie and Military.

Alte verpappte Lackeimer (old glued paint buckets). Might be something stiff to pry open. Would you do it with one of those knifes / tips?

Or ae you thinking that is minimum? Than, what would be really strong work?

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Ok I just tried this with a Manix and Paramilitary. The pains cans were *OLD*, as in more than five years. I put them on a scale so I could see how much force it was taking to hold them down while I used the blades to pop up the lids.

It was impossible to not break the tips if the blades are used to wedge against the side of the lids. The tip just crack off as soon as even mild force is applied (<10 lbs), and you lose <0.5 mm of tip.

If however you use the spine of the blade to move the lip out of the way and then jam the blade all the way down into the can, you can readily pop the lids up. I did it to three old cans, all of them took more than 35 lbs of force to hold down on the opposite sides.

So what I would say is this, be very careful with the fine points, work the lids to the side with the back of the knife and either continue to use that to work the lid up, or carefully insert the point down past the lid so the very point doesn't see any stress when prying.

I did it with a "tactical" fixe blade, the Gerber Silver Trident and its tip snapped in the same way. You need something with a fairly robust profile to take wedging against the side of the lid. I did it with a H1 with no problem, but for most lighter utility blades care will need to be taken.

Of course half a mm of tip isn't a critical problem.

-Cliff

 

[HoB]

I agree, 0.5 mm I would hardly call "tip breaking off". You loose easily that much tip rounding on the sharpmaker, if you are not careful. I would call that tip blunting at best. And I would assume it would happen to any spear point type blade that is sharpened all the way to the tip.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Pretty much, the more ductile steels will just bend. It takes a really obtuse profile to hold the full tip, the H1 is really thick.

-Cliff

 

[Blop]

So the .5mm were just right out of the edge bevel?

Nothing from the blade bevel (the flats) itself was broken away?

If i recall right, the Paras blade is .8mm thick before it forms the edge bevel and the edge bevel itself is about 1 mm high at about 30° included with a secondary, very small 40° setting on the very edge.

I wouldn´t mind to get a chip out of the edge, as it happend sometimes as i was misusing edges to loose a small screw or hit the edge with the SM rods accidently.

Tip breakage means to me, you loose a remarkable triangle of the blade, meaning the part behind the edge. Which you can only repair by grounding a new edge and tip.

BTW i was surprised to see the Para, because oftenly people tell, the Spyderco blades run thinner than Benchmade blades. But exept the AFCK, which runs down to .8mm, like the Para but forming a 40° edge. Any BM i have seen else runs down to .5mm forming a 30° edge. Like the 550, the 520, the 140HS, the 710 and i guess those more gentleman knifes too.

 

[Franco G]

Blop,

do you say that the NIB edge on BM 710HS is 30 degrees inclusive (i. e. 15 degrees per side)?

I would appreciate the answer.

Franco

 

[Cliff Stamp]

So the .5mm were just right out of the edge bevel?

The edge bevel was fine, no damage. The only break was in the very tip. As HoB noted "break" is probably an overstatement, it would not even show up on a picture unless your camera had a decent zoom (20x), it doesn't show up on mine.

Nothing from the blade bevel (the flats) itself was broken away?

It would take a huge force to crack any reasonable amount of the blade. When I was playing with the Chinook II awhile ago I didn't make any real effort to quantify the loads because I was just interested to see what would give up first the lock or the blade.

I'll do similar with the Manix (which has a slimmer blade profile of course) but estimate the loads to do so, they are way higher than what would be needed to pop a paint can, the Manix didn't even flex as the can top was coming up.

Most utility prying, cans and such can't really damage anything beyond really slim blades like you find on stockmans which have ~1/16" blades, ~1/4" wide with full grinds.

The only way to break a large amount of the tip off on something like the Manix is to do the equilavent of prying in wood, or something as resilent, in fact now I am curious if you could break them if you were digging in dense vegetables.

That might be a decent inbetween step, as dense wood will break most tips and the paint cans should break none. A lot of people are hard on tips in the kitchen prying in foods, usually working apart frozen ones though which is just as bad as dense wood.

Tip breakage means to me, you loose a remarkable triangle of the blade, meaning the part behind the edge. Which you can only repair by grounding a new edge and tip.

The next these get a full sharpening the tips will reset automatically, it really is a small amount of metal lost. If you hold the knife at arms length you would not notice it unless you were looking for it.

BTW i was surprised to see the Para, because oftenly people tell, the Spyderco blades run thinner than Benchmade blades.

The one I have is 0.020-0.027" behind the edge, ground at 12-13 degrees per side, fairly acute edge profile, the Manix is even more so, probably the most acute in a "tactical". The slimmest I have seen in on the Catcherman which has an extreme edge profile, 0.008-0.012" thick and ground at 10-12 degrees per side.

-Cliff

 

[Blop]

What a variety. I was surprised to see such a broad bevel of a reputated manufacturer, because these bevels are hard to resharpen.

Franco G,

i have sawn the 710 and noticed the thin profile but do not remember the angle. If my post was irritating about this, sorry please.

Cliff again,

thanx for giving your overview. Hope to see your Manix review soon (or did i miised it?).

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What a variety. I was surprised to see such a broad bevel of a reputated manufacturer, because these bevels are hard to resharpen.

Yes, I would rather see a thinner and narrower edge. You can get the same level of cutting ability with more light durability and greater ease of sharpening, however high stress durability will be lower.

-Cliff