Map & Compass issue

Watchful said:
I'm sorry I was late to the dance, but as soon as I read RAT's error, the first thing I thought of was datum. That's about exactly the error you'd expect from that: on average, about 200m. Not sure why that isn't stressed more in GPS usage; it's something I personally make a point about for just such occasions. Pilots tend to rely on WGS 84 for airline use, and often forget to switch from one datum to another when taking their portable GPS system with them.
Click to expand...

Same here. Anytime I hear of a repeatable GPS error around 100 to 300 feet the first thing I suspect is Datum error.

KR
 
Watchful said:
I agree with this, but would put primitive last after GPS, only because the average person encounters GPS more often now, with car nav systems, cell phones, and so on, and primitive approaches are more fuzzy and local.
Click to expand...

Watchful, I hear you. I'm a believer in maximizing your unaided skills first, in case you're stuck without mechanical aides.

In the end, who's to say which is first on the priority scale. It's important to know all of them equally to be most capable in any given situation.
 
I cant see the Gov changing the GPS preset error. As was mentioned before there are way too many units out there in cars that wont work... Too much money invested in the technolgy.... Atlist i hope that would be good enough of a reason for them not to change it.

Sasha
 
I've been teaching map and compass for years and I don't consider it "primitive" like the primitive gross navigation techniques we also teach. And while I have a ton of respect for Doug Ritter, if his number 1 go to navigation device is a GPS then I strongly disagree with him. Society is getting dumbed down by the use of technology. I love technology as long as the basic skills are not sacrificed in the process, AND as long as it works. Kids nowadays can't even read a road map because they have these little GPS boxes that sit on their dash and tell them every turn. All this technology will bite us in the ass one day.
 
R.A.T. said:
Society is getting dumbed down by the use of technology.
Click to expand...

I see this every day. I'm a hydrographic and topographic surveyor with 15 years experience all over the world. We use GPS technology every day. I was still trained in the "olden" days, with theodolite and measuring tape. Nowadays if I see these new surveyors fresh from school, they don't have a feel for what they are doing. They see numbers on the screen of the GPS, and they believe what they are seeing.

If I go in the woods I don't even take a GPS. Dead weight anyway. Map & compass never failed me. So I agree with the posters here who said train map&compass first, GPS later.

It does have advantages in some situations, in featureless landscapes like deserts or on the water. There GPS can be a great help. But it must never be your only way of navigation. Always check if you're using the correct datum. Always try to check the GPS with a known benchmark.
 
Brian Jones said:
In the end, who's to say which is first on the priority scale. It's important to know all of them equally to be most capable in any given situation.
Click to expand...
Agreed, but also agree with you that compass/map should be number 1. Let's face it, if you understand how to use a map and compass, the other methods come much much easier, since to a good extent they're all based on this.

sasha said:
I cant see the Gov changing the GPS preset error. As was mentioned before there are way too many units out there in cars that wont work... Too much money invested in the technolgy.... Atlist i hope that would be good enough of a reason for them not to change it.
Click to expand...
If memory serves, the last time it was really adjusted upward was in 1991 for the Gulf War, and then only in the bird directly over Kuwait. This was seen as a smart move, since (a) not many civilians were using GPS then, (b) air and sea traffic was curtailed in the area anyway, (c) it didn't affect our troops, and (d) there was great reason to think the Iraqis could be using our GPS technology as a convenience to their own troop movements.

R.A.T. said:
I love technology as long as the basic skills are not sacrificed in the process, AND as long as it works. Kids nowadays can't even read a road map because they have these little GPS boxes that sit on their dash and tell them every turn. All this technology will bite us in the ass one day.
Click to expand...
I very much doubt it would bite us in the ass after 20+ years of progressively better application. But I do grant you that folks need to understand there's a huge difference between "I enjoy it as a serious help in my car" and "I'd bet my life on my GPS receiver, miles away from nowhere, to the point that I'd forego a map and compass or the skills to use them."

That seems like I've stretched the viewpoints for comedic effect, but not really: the line between those two (turn-by-turn navigation versus "grabbing the Garmin while taking the kids out on a hike") is pretty small for most people.

That said, it's impossible to ignore or neglect skills in GPS training, especially since about 2000 when the DoD eliminated the intentional inaccuracy. And I don't think we've seen it all yet--GPS technology is getting so cheap that I'm seeing it in clocks that don't need you to adjust the time, you'll be seeing advertisements targeted to you as you pass by a store (this is already in the works), and more.

As that reliance on GPS grows, there will, I suspect, be greater respect for folks that know how to read a topo map and use a humble compass. Because while GPS is great at telling you where you are, it's not so smart at telling you where to go. A guy with a map can find a scenic route much faster by studying contour and water lines.

Jos said:
It does have advantages in some situations, in featureless landscapes like deserts or on the water. There GPS can be a great help. But it must never be your only way of navigation.
Click to expand...
Truly said.
 
GPS should be a supplement to your map and compass and navigational skills.

Unfortunately, even in the military we have those that cannot navigate without a GPS.

Then when the batteries go dead or it breaks they are S.O.L.
 
Watchful good post. I think you and Jeff (R.A.T.) are in total agreement actually.

I believe, and I'm guessing this is what you and Jeff believe, too, that any life-saving training -- whether survival or tactical -- that is dependent on a tool or specialized tool is dangerous and limiting.

Let's use martial arts as an analogy (Mercop and I were discussing this recently): some folks teach a whole system based upon a specialized kind of knife. That's nice, but when the trainee is faced with a real-world violent encounter, and Murphy's Law kicks in (as it almost always does), and the trainee either loses his knife or gets disarmed, he's going to be at a loss. When the tool becomes a crutch, you no longer can walk without that support.

It's the same with people who advocate teaching survival using only a big, tough knife. You need to teach folks how to survive with a small knife, or no knife, too. Last time I looked, it would be highly unlikely that if you were in a commercial plane crash in the wilderness, you'd have a big knife conveniently stowed in your carry on luggage.

Kenk, I have great respect for Doug's knowledge. He's an excellent researcher. However, I find based on reading his stuff that much of it is academic. There are things missing that he would have brought up if he had to use his skills for real. His statement implies that map & compass are inadequate without GPS. That is incorrect.

There are people on this forum who have had far more dirt-time in real-world SHTF situations than Doug ever has. I'm not talking about taking lots of classes, which Doug has done, to his credit (they always have safety backstops built in). I'm talking about folks really having to survive on their own wits - or die in the process. Just keep that in mind.
 
Thanks, Brian. I appreciate it.

I tend to be a bit of extremist in the philosophy of survival: you're quite perceptive in that I'm a big fan of technology as a great tool, but it really comes down to surviving when you have nothing.

I stomp around on hallowed ground by saying this, but while I pack a pretty mean PSK, I train for not having it. I am intrigued by any chemical means of starting a fire, but know that in a real disaster, one of the two chemicals won't work or got lost (which means the other one is useless). I hate "survival" gadgets when used before the brain.

But my limited disagreement with RAT (whom I respect to no end!) is not that GPS will bite us in the ass, but that we always find a way to bite ourselves. :)
 
Watchful said:
But my limited disagreement with RAT (whom I respect to no end!) is not that GPS will bite us in the ass, but that we always find a way to bite ourselves. :)
Click to expand...

I will agree with that 100 percent. I just worded it the wrong way. I was talking to a group of contractors at SHOT and asking them about their E&E kits and how much nav work they've done. Most of them had no E&E kit and zero nav skills. I find it amazing that a lot of guys are putting their lives on the line hoping their weapon always runs, that they don't run out of ammo / ordnance, that they don't get shot, that their vehicle doesn't get disabled, that their comms always work, and that they don't get left alone being the last man standing in enemy territory. A lot of them carry GPS and a compass. Very few of them understand the compass. Amazing.

Jeff
 
With all due respect, the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of folks driving around remote areas of the country (via cars, snowmobiles, etc) simply will not learn how to use a compass with a map. Also, most of those people, especially the car travelers, will never carry more detailed maps of the area through which they're traveling than regular roadmaps - and many don't even carry those anymore. As I recall, James Kim carried a printout of his route obtained on-line.

On the other hand, just looking at the cars driving by, the number of cars with mapping GPS's on their dashboards is increasing rapidly. Regular folks who'd laugh at you if you suggested they learn how to use a compass will quickly learn how to use a NUVI-style or hand-held GPS.

I wholeheartedly agree that folks SHOULD learn how to use a compass with a map, carry a compass, and carry high quality maps of the area traveled. I teach those skills to both Girl and Boy Scouts all the time. Its just a reality that most of the adults out there simply won't do what we KNOW they should do.
 
Kenk,

I agree with you as far as average Joe's lack of motivation, and his/her cars.

I was speaking in the survival context, in terms of what should be taught to those who want the knowledge.

Cheers,

~B.

kenk said:
With all due respect, the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of folks driving around remote areas of the country (via cars, snowmobiles, etc) simply will not learn how to use a compass with a map. Also, most of those people, especially the car travelers, will never carry more detailed maps of the area through which they're traveling than regular roadmaps - and many don't even carry those anymore. As I recall, James Kim carried a printout of his route obtained on-line.

On the other hand, just looking at the cars driving by, the number of cars with mapping GPS's on their dashboards is increasing rapidly. Regular folks who'd laugh at you if you suggested they learn how to use a compass will quickly learn how to use a NUVI-style or hand-held GPS.

I wholeheartedly agree that folks SHOULD learn how to use a compass with a map, carry a compass, and carry high quality maps of the area traveled. I teach those skills to both Girl and Boy Scouts all the time. Its just a reality that most of the adults out there simply won't do what we KNOW they should do.
Click to expand...
 
kr1 said:
Not exactly. The military has a correction frequency that civilian GPS's don't. If SA is turned on again it will affect your GPS but the correction information will be used by the military GPS systems to take SA error out keeping them as accurate as yours is now with WAAS.

KR
Click to expand...

A fully WAAS capable GPS unit will get you back to the 3 meter error range and it will give you altitude if you have a "aviation" unit for sure. "Steam gauge" altimeters have a bit of error in them unless you know the current atmosheric pressure.
 
jdm61 said:
A fully WAAS capable GPS unit will get you back to the 3 meter error range and it will give you altitude if you have a "aviation" unit for sure. "Steam gauge" altimeters have a bit of error in them unless you know the current atmosheric pressure.
Click to expand...

A WAAS GPS is only WAAS because of corrections that are transmitted to the GPS from a special satellite after the corrections are sent to it from a land base. Again, turning that correction satellite data off and SA back on turns your GPS back into a 100 meter accuracy 95% of the time unit like it was before SA was turned off.

KR
 
R.A.T. said:
I will agree with that 100 percent. I just worded it the wrong way. I was talking to a group of contractors at SHOT and asking them about their E&E kits and how much nav work they've done. Most of them had no E&E kit and zero nav skills. I find it amazing that a lot of guys are putting their lives on the line hoping their weapon always runs, that they don't run out of ammo / ordnance, that they don't get shot, that their vehicle doesn't get disabled, that their comms always work, and that they don't get left alone being the last man standing in enemy territory. A lot of them carry GPS and a compass. Very few of them understand the compass. Amazing.

Jeff
Click to expand...

I thought that most (all?) of the contractors were ex-military?

What the hell are we teaching soldiers in the army now? As a Sargent in a scout platoon I taught land navigation with map and compass and patrolling techniques and tactics. We no longer even teach soldier how to field strip their weapons and repair them?

WTF? Do they even know that that means? :confused:

KR
 
kr,

Many contractors are ex-LEO and, and some non-leo or non-mil even.

But as far as the military goes, think of the poor Army Rangers getting totally lost in Mogadishu back in '93. It's a crime they weren't trained in land nav. Our soldiers still get shortchanged by the admin folks in the DoD.
 
kr1 said:
A WAAS GPS is only WAAS because of corrections that are transmitted to the GPS from a special satellite after the corrections are sent to it from a land base. Again, turning that correction satellite data off and SA back on turns your GPS back into a 100 meter accuracy 95% of the time unit like it was before SA was turned off.

KR
Click to expand...

100 meters don't cut it in the aviation world, my friend, ESPECIALLY with the new 100 ft reduced vertical minimum seperations. So not likely that the WAAS signal is going to be shut down.
 
jdm61 said:
100 meters don't cut it in the aviation world, my friend, ESPECIALLY with the new 100 ft reduced vertical minimum seperations. So not likely that the WAAS signal is going to be shut down.
Click to expand...

I am not aware of any GPS that is FAA certified for flight operations. Also the altitude errors are 1.5 times worse than coordinate values. This was done by the DOD when they created the system. They optimized ground coordinates accuracy as much as possible and sacrificed some accuracy in altitude to do this. While I have always felt that a GPS would be useful in a cockpit I wasn't aware that the FAA has certified any for flight. Has that changed so there are now some approved for flight operations?

While it is unlikely that the DOD will turn SA back on, they really don't need to because of the new systems. They do reserve the right to do so.

KR
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top