Marbles Woodcraft Knife

Codger_64, if someone lived in Washington D.C. would they have access to the U.S. Patent Office and be able to make a copy of the Marbles 1916 Woodcraft patent application?

I think that you should perhaps make a post in the Community Center forum, and ask if anyone lives in Washington, D.C., and if they could/would go to the U.S. Patent Office and get a copy that 1916 Marbles patent application. There are a lot of folks at BladeForums that are generous with their time and are willing to help-out other members. Like you do.

Thanks again, for all of your help and information.

GeoThorn
 
This may be too personal of a question, and, if it is, you certainly don't have to answer it, but, what price does an original Marbles Woodcraft knife, in excellent condition, command these days...? I'm just curious. I'm thinking that they might be so expensive that I should just be happy with having my Kinfolks knock-off. ;)

Thanks,

GeoThorn
 
I gave $60 and shipping for my example on eBay (# 6633057585) which I consider to be in excellent used condition. It was made between 1916 and the mid '30s, since it has the patent date on it. Patent pending knives were only made for a year or so (1914-15), and they bring more. Recent production knives cost this much or more, so buying this one did not really hurt. I've seen good used examples go for thirty or so, sometimes without sheths, or with ratty sheaths. A mint example, naturally will bring more.

Now, these are the leather handled aluminum button pommel models. A stag handle, or stag butt bring more (recent sale over $400), and a "war production" with a bakelite pommell likewise brings a bit more.

Anyone can access the USPTO online, or go to a local law library. A part of the patent process is actually "publishing" the patents, and every patent winds up in a printed book, distributed to law libraries for patent searches and research. A lot of early patents are not found online, so a patent searcher has to physically look through the books covering the target years.

Some larger patent law firms have their own set of copies. Two of the three I did patent work for did.

Codger
 
The 1925 Union Cutlery Company Ka-Bar ad arrived today and I made a better scan of it.

As you can see, they had three different models of the Woodcraft pattern shown (272 with stag, 472 with stacked leather, and 172 with...synthetic...guttapercha/hard rubber/bakelite?) and two of the Ideal pattern (471, 271), and one that was a modification of the Woodcraft pattern (665 w / upper blade ground down for a trailing point) using the Outers pattern bone handle.

Looks like I have another one to seek out!

I ran across an I.D. question on this pattern in another forum, and the resident expert refered to the knife as a "rip-off" of the Marbles Woodcraft knife. I'm beginning to think this is not so accurate of a description. Unless the early Marbles records are closely examined, and those of Kinfolks, Union Cut Co, Schrade Cut Co, Western States, Dorken Bros, Jean Case, Remington, Sears, Belknap, Simmons, Shapliegh, and others can be closely scrutinized, we will never know who made knives of this pattern for others to sell, who made copies, and who purchased license from Marbles, or even what it was that Marbles patented! Maybe it was the threaded tang, and not the blade design. Or the thumb grooves. And who are we to say who copied who on the Barlow folder design? No one can prove who originated it, and the true designer is lost to history.

Codger
 
Codger_64 said:
Looks like I have another one to seek out!
Click to expand...
Actually, it looks like you have another couple or a few to find, rather than just one...but, I don't know if your wife was watching over your shoulder as you were typing. ;)

Codger_64 said:
I ran across an I.D. question on this pattern in another forum, and the resident expert refered to the knife as a "rip-off" of the Marbles Woodcraft knife.
Click to expand...
He or she doesn't actually sound like too much of an "expert" if they aren't open to any other consideration beyond their own personal belief. Unless one was around in the 1910 to 1925 time zone, how can they actually know which one was the "rip-off" or 'knock-off?' Maybe Marbles was simply the first company to place a patent application on the Woodcraft design...?

Codger_64 said:
I'm beginning to think this is not so accurate of a description. Unless the early Marbles records are closely examined, and those of Kinfolks, Union Cut Co, Schrade Cut Co, Western States, Dorken Bros, Jean Case, Remington, Sears, Belknap, Simmons, Shapliegh, and others can be closely scrutinized, we will never know who made knives of this pattern for others to sell, who made copies, and who purchased license from Marbles, or even what it was that Marbles patented! Maybe it was the threaded tang, and not the blade design. Or the thumb grooves. And who are we to say who copied who on the Barlow folder design? No one can prove who originated it, and the true designer is lost to history.
Click to expand...
I think that you're right.

Just like the apparent/seeming prevalence of left-handed sheaths, just because we weren't even alive and aware in 1916, we cannot fully explain it. It's not like they were offering each model in either a left- or right-handed sheath...or, were they...?

I believe that what is needed is a Marbles Woodcraft "family tree," starting in perhaps 1900 or 1910, that shows all Woodcraft-design knives, that each company produced, each year.

I'm kind of thinking that all of the companies that produced Woodcraft-design knives were limited to certain geographic areas of the country, or certain retail store outlets, however, what with the Sears & Roebuck catalog being out, even selling houses and Model Ts, whomever had a mailbox could have simply ordered a Woodcraft knife.

Codger_64, I believe that unravelling this mystery of the Woodcraft design might take a long time to figure out, if it is even possible to complete. It certainly adds to the mystique and allure of knife collecting, having a knife style to collect that includes a mystery of origin and design.

I'm certainly enjoying your detective work! ;)

GeoThorn
 
A forum member is sending me a Remington example, so I'll have yet another to compare. So far, the others mentioned have eluded me. While I really do enjoy the research, I do not give more than the value of knives just to say I own them. That is, their value to ME. I could care less what the gross market values them at. If I have learned anything at all about knife collecting, it is that knives of which only one or two exist is a rare thing. And with these production knives, they were made for years by the thousands. Of the knives sold to outdoorsmen, a good percentage were wannabe outdoorsmen (who just bought the toys, but didn't play the game), or true outdoorsmen (who took great care with their tools), so examples in excellent used condition are not nearly as rare as most sellers (and price guides) would have you to believe. Amassing a representitive sampling of this, or other patterns of early rigid bladed hunting knives in many markings is well within the means of even a modestly funded collector such as myself. If you don't get in a hurry, and have to have THAT knife. Chances are, it's twin will be along shortly at a better price, or in better condition, or with more unique features (like the Brown Shoe Co. SFO).

Codger
 
Anyone have an idea on this one.It has no tangstamp or etching anywhere I can find.Sure looks like those others.Arnold
 
15o8dgh.jpg


Arnold, it has the birds head pommel common to the Western L88. Does it have the Platts split tang? That would be exposed tang top and bottom, with two pins in the pommel instead of one on a standard hidden tang.

WOW...and I thought my mailman was slow!
They ride Shetland ponies here!:D

Codger
 
That was my thought the blade matches but it has the hidden tang and single pin like a Schrade.Arnold
 
Schrade Cut Co did make this pattern, I am guessing between 1935 and 1941, before war production intervened. I've only seen one example so far, and it had the button pommel, but they may have used the birds head before selling to the Baers, or it is also possible the Baers made a few, just not that we have seen advertised or cataloged. Case Brothers is another possibility, so without at least the shadow of the missing stamp, we really don't know.

Codger
 
Codger_64, I'm really happy that you've found the 1916 Marbles Woodcraft Design patent that you've been searching to find! :D Congratulations!

What do you predict is the next item you'll be seeking?
(Well, something more interesting than the light switch in the dark, that is.... ;))

GeoThorn
 
Well, I am working on three more fixed blades just now, actually. The oldest is the "Outers" pattern, then the "Sportsman" pattern. The newest is the Schrade H-15 Utility Hunter pattern.

I just got an old Remington catalog from 1936, and it will hopefully help on at least one of these first two patterns. I am doing the "Ebay buyer's wait" for it right now.

I've already done quite a bit on the H-15 Utility Hunter and it's companions, the 138 Bowie Hunter and the 144 Hunter's Pride, but I still need to acquire and document more examples of each, and do some root tracing as well. Since Albert Baer was on the military war production board during the 1940's, and Camillus was so heavily invested in making fixed blade knives of this style for the military, I am leaning toward both Imperial and Camillus origins, but nothing concrete yet.

Codger
 
Now I've added the Remngton RH32 to the mix. Here is a dark scan to show the blade profiles.

Top to bottom, Western, Marbles, Remington. As you can see, while the Western and Remington could well be said to be styled after the Marbles Woodcraft, and therefore said to be of the Woodcraft pattern, they are not mere copies, but interpretations, variations on a theme. Grind types, lines, thumb notches, choils, hafting, guards, pommels all are different. Even handle washer stack progressions are different. Reminds me of the Mustang/Cougar/Camero/Firebird/Cuda/Challenger cars. Now I need a Schrade Cut CO #360, and a Blue Grass #18.

Codger
 
That's an excellent analogy there Codger (the cars) :thumbup:

And its really cool to see all 3 of them next to one another like that for comparision - all else being equal, I like the shape of the Western blade best personally.
 
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