Market Value

[Rick Marchand]

I'm a beginer knifemaker and was searching the internet to get an idea of where my knives fall when it comes to market pricing. I've never made knives with intent to sell and those i've made for others have been gifts. While doing my research I came across a few makers that blew my statistics right out of the water... I will use this gentleman as an example http://www.shivakicustomknives.com/ ... Please understand I'm not posting this to run this guy down or anything... I know hi-end Japanese blades are very expensive and made with great care and often cerimonial processes... but I haven't run across this in a modern style knife before. Is this an overpriced knife or is the cost validated by the quality. They are truely beautiful works.

Anyone familiar with these?

Rick

 

[Rick Marchand]

My good friend Eric (Normark) just emailed me a few links to "Tai Goo" and "Tim Lively" so I'm begining to see that there is another level, if you will, to the art of knifemaking.

Your comments are still welcome and appreciated.

Rick

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Beginning artist - $50
Picasso - $10,000,000

I think that sums it up pretty well.

As a new and unknown maker your knives are worth more to you than to others. As you gain more experience, skill, exposure, and maybe win a few awards, you will get more for a knife. When you reach international status, as with Moran, Loveless, Kojihara, etc, the price for a knife has more to do with the makers name than the knife quality.
Stacy

 

[Rick Marchand]

Ah.... I can see clearly now.... lol.... I'm no Pablo "Ricasso".

That is a good way to explain it.... painfully simple. Thanks.

Rick

 

[Patrickknives]

I am also a new maker trying to sell knives, when I looked at shivaki ling I saw what I would like to become. Based on my own experience over the last few years I still cannot imagine the time and dedication put into those knives. They are truely a work of art and a magnificent tool. He has found something that may well be worth more than his asking price. Thanks for introducting me to his work.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Your knives are great works too, Patrick. Someone put me on to Tai Goo today and he is someone I strive to be like.... unknowingly, until this afternoon. Funny, when you find somebody who's ideas follow the same path as your own... It's like I can see into the future at what I may become.


Here is one of his bush blades as compared to one of mine that is still awaiting a proper handle BTW. (maybe birch burl)

Tai Goo (simply beautiful)

Mine (The ugly brother... lol)

 

[stingray4540]

Now see, with a better handle, I like your's better. Look at the cost of materials for the knives you make, and the amount of hours it takes you to make one, then figure on a price to start with. You can ask as much as you want for your knives, but whether or not they sell will tell you what the public is willing to pay for them. If they sell faster than you can make them, then you could probably afford to raise your prices, on the other hand if you can't sell not a one, then you are probably asking too much. You need to get a few out there first to get the word of mouth going, and get your name out, so it's probably best to start low, as long as you're not losing money, to get your name out there, then when there is actually some kind of demand, slowly raise your prices.

 

[Alarion]

Also... a thing on which to spend some considerations: you should put your name to your knives. But don't sell or give away anything you don't want to be tracked back to you in some years when you will be really good at making knives.
Start sellin only when you are reasonably confident about the quality of what you sell.

 

[Leatherface]

Your knives are great works too, Patrick. Someone put me on to Tai Goo today and he is someone I strive to be like.... unknowingly, until this afternoon. Funny, when you find somebody who's ideas follow the same path as your own... It's like I can see into the future at what I may become.


Here is one of his bush blades as compared to one of mine that is still awaiting a proper handle BTW. (maybe birch burl)

Tai Goo (simply beautiful)

Mine (The ugly brother... lol)

Not a thing wrong with that blade bro

There is a massive amount of cash in the bushcraft market right now...Artsy knives are great and all but who uses them?? Make some to be used and then USE them.

That way ya know what breaks them and what caused it...Go from there

You are off to a good start...Look at the scandi knives and Nessmucks

 

[AcridSaint]

Too much propaganda in his site for me. He has several models that he makes regularly and charges a mint for them. Nothing much about his methods or the work involved on his site.

I see references to him being "legendary" and a "master", but I've never heard of him. I didn't see anything on there that couldn't be done well by several makers I know. What exactly is his "samurai steel" and why does it make his "mercenary" knife worth $2400? I understand why some folks charge so much for their blades, Tai Goo for example, who does everything by hand. I can also see a whole different level in his knives than this guy and I don't even particularly care for Tai Goo's style.

Here are some red flags:

Samurai Steel Spirit Blade sets new World Record: Cut 14 ropes three times, 15 ropes
three times, 16 ropes eleven times; Ran out of rope; then chopped up a pile of 2x4!

Where is this world record kept? Who witnessed the setting of it? Why is there no reference to these things?

Created in the traditions of the Koto period (cold sword). Smooth flowing lines; light, fast, with full distal taper. Koto samurai steel has a distinct visibil grain.

Is this a claim that his steel is the same as Koto steel? Where did he learn these traditions?

At 60 years old, four months after being inducted into the "Masters of Martial Arts Hall of
Fame", Master Ki fought in the National Toughman, setting the all-time 25 year KO record.

Why does there seem to be no legitimate references online to this "Masters of Martial Arts Hall of Fame"?

Ninja Technique of...

He's a ninjer...

Lt. Paul Chenevert

Night Stalker/Search and Destroy

Unit Classified- Location Classified

I hunt the night with a Ranger Stealth Kill strapped to my lower leg, and my battle blade, designed by me; Brought to life by the Master..

Dont fear the night; fear what stalks the night.

Ok, this has a lot of problems... number one the Lt. is holding the same WWII .30 cal that "master" Ki uses in his own photos. The other problem I have with this is that a google search of Lt. Paul tells me that he is/was in the 29th Infrantry Division of the National Guard and is stationed in Iraq in an advisory capacity. Maybe it's a different Lt. Paul.

The website has absolutely no mention of his bladesteel, his heat treating methods or any materials. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to base his value on.

Oh yeah, he's banned from Blade Forums... dunno why.

 

[texasrecurve]

Acridsaint, you make some very good points and I agree totally.

TR

 

[SR_matt]

one thing also to remember, well 2 things

-people think if it costs more its better. the same piece has 2 price ranges (the low general sales area and the "high brow" crowd these prices usually are pretty different some times double)
-if 90% of the people that are at your level of craft are selling for more and making the sales take it to their prices and if people tell you "thats a lot" point and say "thats the going rate in the market", the opposite works but only if you are not selling, if you can sell at higher prices than everyone else dont go down.

these tips are what i have learned from making chainmaille jewelry, i still have 2000 USD worth of stock because the craft fair i went to people were browsing and not buying and even though i got some weird looks at how high my prices were many people making the same types of things as me thought the prices were good.

start out with family and friends and they will take you out from there.

here is a good equation to figure out what is a decent price to sell stuff at, this is a general "hand made item" equation

((materials)+(hourly wage*hours worked)+(over head))*1.2= whole sale

(whole sale ) *1.4= retail OR ((materials)+(hourly wage*hours worked)+(over head))*1.68 = retail

the hardest number to come up with there is your wage, as a newer maker you can have a range of 5 -50 bucks an hour mostly depending on market, for my jewelry i charge 10-15 an hour which is pretty reasonable for they type i am making due to the skills, knife making i would say if you can produce decently made items should be 10-25 an hour (25 would be if you are pushing near professional like work IMHO) if you start do do it as a full time job and get very consistent pieces that are well made start pushing up higher into 30s-40s.

now here comes the fun part, if you have in depth training in metals and working them you can easily argue for more money. average joe that just makes on the side and the guy that has a degree in craft/material studies even if the pieces are the same quality, the guy with the degree can argue for more because he sat around for 4 years learning how to do it and why he does what he does. also he can give the buyer much more info as to what is going on in the knife.

i hope this rambling makes some sense and helps

o ya almost forgot, i like that knife you posted, the blade shape is not my favorite but i wouldnt mind using it at all. depending on the market your aiming for some might want it to be fully cleaned up others will like it as is. the only real thing i can see that is "bad" about the over all form in the knife is that is that it is 50/50 blade handle, some people like it and will not mind it at all but for the human eye to say "thats nice" or as one of my instructors would say "it's a beautiful shape" there is the "golden ratio" which is 5:3 (IIRC), hence why you have that ratio in photos and many other normal every day things or at least close to that ratio. there was a big thread about it a while ago that really explained it and when you look at it you realize that getting at or near that ratio it looks better, its a very strange thing.

keep up the good work
-matt

 

[fitzo]

.......I see references to him being "legendary" and a "master", but I've never heard of him......

Ah, you just haven't been around long enough, Grasshopper, my good friend.

Shiva Ki has been around a long time, since at least the early 80's, and he had the same schtick back then. He has developed a mystique that has attracted a following. He has convinced people that he has a special blade, and they have been willing to pay for it. Deserved or not, the only thing it takes is customers willing to buy your output at your price, regardless of quality. Mythos is as important as product in those price ranges; witness Tai Goo or Moran or many others. How do you establish their value other than what one is willing to pay for them? Sometimes, as in Moran's humble case, the legend is generated by others, and sometimes by the person themselves. Sometimes, it is for economic advantage, other times it is for ego. There is no doubting, though, that knifemaking is not immune from cults of personality. Sometimes, of course, it's a cult of only one person, the maker, and history quickly dispatches those. Others persist beyond all reason. Life is strange.

My advice about pricing: always charge as much as you can get for your knives, but never so much that you wouldn't want to refund the money to a dissatisfied customer.

 

[AcridSaint]

Mike, your slightly cryptic reply doesn't fool me You know all too well how I feel about subjects like this. I should mention here that Mike and I are good friends and he knows I get worked up over some of these things. He regularly introduces me to great names in the knifemaking world which I have never heard of, so I may not be the best gauge to use when determining if a maker is a legend.

That being said, my post was a bit rushed yesterday since I was trying to not miss the carpool. The point I wanted to make is this: Someone could post on here and ask "Has anyone ever heard of this Ron Lake guy? Are his knives really worth it?". Here on BF you'll find people who have owned, handled or currently own Ron Lake knives and they can tell you about the value. The same could be said for Tai Goo, Moran, Buster Warenski, Koji Hara and a whole slew of other folks. Are these guys legends? I won't decide that for you, but I personally know people who have handled or owned all of the above. Does anyone here own or know someone who owns a Shiva Ki? Can they give us an honest review?

I'm not his target market, so maybe I'm not the best at determining the value of his knives. Compare his knives, side by side, with other well-known makers' in the same price range and let me know if you can see the difference.

 

[fitzo]

Mike, your slightly cryptic reply doesn't fool me .........

Darn, and it made such good sense to Nanc and me when I read it to her before posting.

Here's an example: a guy who lives in an apartment looks at a truckload of manure and says, "I wouldn't give you a dollar for all that sh*t." Along comes a guy with a 1 acre flowergarden and gladly pays $60. It's still just doodoo, but now the sh*t has great value. Who's right?

 

[AcridSaint]

The manure comparison is much clearer for me