Mass vs. Molar Percentage

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I was wondering if you could clarify a question I have. When looking at the molecular make up of steels, for instance s110v, when you look at the molar percentage of vanadium it is higher than the mass percentage but when looking at the percentage of niobium the mass percentage is higher than the molar. Why is this and which one do you use when comparing steels?


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I'm sitting at 26 years since a chemistry class, but the basic comparison has to do with the relative density of the two elements vs. the number of molecules formed from the respective elements.

The main lesson from such comparisons is that a light element may make up a tiny percentage of total alloy weight, its effect on the compounds (moles) formed in the alloy may be more significant than that percentage suggests.



That is my very dumbed down, basic take on it. I'm sure a material science person can give you some very specific examples of what that does to phase transitions and other things very important to the heat treating reactions of steel.
 
I'd really like to know why these numbers differ from the mfg. data sheets. The mass percentage is the closest but is off one percent in the Cr for s110v for example. I am using the zknives app and it differs from the data sheets so I'm wondering where all these numbers originate and what effect they have on the heat treat respectively. And in layman's terms if possible. Thank you for your time.


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Ok. I'll take a shot. I've got more background in chemistry than metallurgy, but I'll do my best.



In general chemistry terms...
mass percentage is related to the weight of stuff and molar percentage is related to the amount of stuff. A "mole" is a certain amount of stuff (look up Avogadro's constant if you want to know more). It could be bushels or buckets or crap-loads of stuff, but suffice it to say we just use "moles" to keep everybody on the same page.

Take water ( H[SUB]2[/SUB]O ). Each molecule of water has 3 parts: 2 H's (hydrogen atoms) and 1 O (oxygen atom).

One mole of water also has 3 parts: 2 parts (moles) hydrogen and 1 part (mole) oxygen. So, the percentage of water made up by moles of hydrogen aka the molar percentage of hydrogen is 2 of 3 parts = 2/3 = 67%.
But the mass of water is ~18g per mole. The 2 parts hydrogen weigh about 1g per mole each, and the 1 part oxygen weighs about 16g per mole. So, the percentage of mass of water made up by hyrogens aka the mass percentage of hydrogen is 2g in 18g = 2/18 = 11%.

So with water, just like RX-79G said, the light element (hydrogen) makes up most of the number of molecules, but only a small part of the mass. And that's how one element could be a larger molar percentage, but a smaller mass percentage or vice versa.

Generally speaking, the composition of solids and liquids is usually described by mass or weight. It's not explicitly stated on the Crucible data sheets that I've looked at, but that is the convention, so I am guessing that the percentages of components you see in their steel data sheets are by mass. Based on that, it's my understanding that cpm s110v steel has 15.25% Cr, 9.0% V, and 3.0% Nb by mass, or 15.25% of the total mass of s110v steel is from the Cr.

Any differences in mass percentage values or conversions from molar percentage values might be due to rounding or computation in the app or chart you're working from.




As to how the differences would affect heat treat...
I'm not sure what the tolerances are... for example is 8.9999% V still s110v? what about 8.55%? etc etc. Different ratios of compounds will have different properties (edge holding, toughness, corrosion resistance, etc.), but the effects of changing the ratios might not be that straightforward. It's just like cooking. For some things, a little more or less salt won't make a difference, but for others... disaster.

How the ingredients combine also depends on how and when they're added, how they're heated, how they're mixed, etc etc. I don't know enough about steel manufacturing to know if say 1% more Nb in a given steel with a given heat treat will affect toughness, for example, but somebody around here does, I'm sure.



Hope that was helpful!
 
chopchop is right on. They are usually listed as wt%. For different types of alloys, the elements are allowed within a range of values. So, the manufacturer has a certain latitude in production. The allowed ranges differ for different alloys. For more in depth info have your post moved to the knife makers forum.
 
How do I get it moved? chop thank you for your explanation. It was very simplistic which I don't necessarily need but I find it sometimes helps to really grasp a concept well if it is explained like you would to a child. Sometimes we grasp general concepts without a good working knowledge and this is something I want to understand very well.


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Alloy chemistry is nearly always given in weight or mass %. I don't recall seeing one in molar %. There are phase diagrams in both, but the mass % ones are much more common. Think of it this way. Carbon is very light compared to iron. That's why such relatively small amounts can have such a drastic effect on steel behavior. 1% by weight carbon is considerably more in molar %, and Iron Carbide Fe3C is 6.67% weight carbon, but 25% by atomic %.
 
How do I get it moved? chop thank you for your explanation. It was very simplistic which I don't necessarily need but I find it sometimes helps to really grasp a concept well if it is explained like you would to a child. Sometimes we grasp general concepts without a good working knowledge and this is something I want to understand very well.


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Click the little triangle with the exclamation mark in it, to report the post and ask the Mods to please move it to the Knife Makers forum.
 
How do I get it moved? chop thank you for your explanation. It was very simplistic which I don't necessarily need but I find it sometimes helps to really grasp a concept well if it is explained like you would to a child. Sometimes we grasp general concepts without a good working knowledge and this is something I want to understand very well.

Martin- Apologies! I certainly did not mean to offend anyone by being too simplistic. I have sometimes been told that I am too technical, so I probably went too far the other way.

I'm interested to see where the conversation goes.
 
No there was no offense at all. I was saying I do appreciate the simplicity. Like I said sometimes intricate details are missed sometimes when something is not explained simple like. Thank you.


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Many times in academia adults don't want concepts watered down and it impedes their working knowledge of a subject. They can recite what was taught but not put it in their own words. So I find when I want to understand something really well I ask for layman's terms instead technical terms. Sometimes arrogance equals ignorance


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Click the little triangle with the exclamation mark in it, to report the post and ask the Mods to please move it to the Knife Makers forum.

I can't find the triangle you are talking about. I've hit it before on accident because it said report but now I can't find it in web view or in tapatalk.
 
I have a reply button there. I'm using tapatalk to access BF so I don't know if it'll work or not.


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Thanks for an interesting discussion in terms I can understand. It has been 35 or more years since I had chemistry and I got the discussion. Thanks.
 
That's how I felt about it. There are some great guys on this forum and they are eager to help and explain. I just felt bad when one guy thought I was complaining about his explanation because I enjoyed it very much. I should have been more clear.


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