*Master Knives* SOCOM rip-off.......

Status
Not open for further replies.
Bartman - Nicely put. Unfortunately it's not a "small degree". The Benchmade / Emerson was killed by the "knock offs". The whole thing turned ugly and both Benchmade and Emerson lost and we're left with the Knock offs. Emerson is trying hard to revive the model, but it doesn't seem to be the one he's promoting in his advertising.

Benchmade spent an enormous amount of money making that model known everywhere. Benchmade and Ernie both lost out big time. This is not a small degree.

Spyderco is certainly feeling the knock offs. There's millions of them and they very cheap. And even when we bring them to court and they are defeated, they still do not honor American law. We then have to spend thousands of dollars to hit them again. As long as they can keep us at bay, they can suck every ounce of profit the design has to offer, and then move on to another host.

Companies like Benchmade, Microtech and Spyderco have a very difficult time competing against Taiwan/China copy manufacturing. Especially when we are competing against our own designs. When the Sebenza gets popular enough in the "big market", you can be sure it will be copied as well. It must have an effect.

I remember when the Taiwan/China sunglass copies literally took over the sunglass market in America. They can produce very cheaply and funnel enormous amounts into America, even at little profit per item. Making a little at both ends on proven designs. Most people will look for the best price they can get. Yes, they are using their resources well.

CRKT & Outdoor edge are already producing in Taiwan/China.

So, (Sorry, Orion if it changes the direction of the thread)...Are you? The knife afficiadados of the world. The most knowledgable group I've come across (other than knife makers). Suggesting that Companies like Spyderco et al; make our knives in Taiwan/China? Or are you suggesting that we just work harder creating new stuff while the reward for our efforts is quickly diverted elswhere? And we just blow our
I guess we all get to hide and watch.
sal

 
Sal Glesser: I commend you for developing your business. But, excuse me for the language, stop the whining, you are well aware of the "demands" of free market enterprise. "Knock-offs" are GOOD. "Knock-offs" benefit the end user. "Knock-offs" FORCE your company to constantly innovate and market new products. We, the end user, benefit from the competition. You mention Emerson. Emerson is a knife maker that has, and continues to be, a plague, on the custom knife market. Those who have ordered a custom knife 3 years ago, are unable to get a delivery date. Emerson's CQC7 is a production knife. The contract for the manufacture of the parts-where, USA, who knows. Assemble the knives, and make a profit. You own one? I do. The blade is sharpened on one side to save costs. The lockup works loose once a week. The blade has machining marks all over the blade. The blade is much too short for the handle. It isn't worth ½ of what they sell for. Compared to the EDI, the Emerson should be sold in gumball machines. EDI smacks of innovation. EDI is a shining example of how a new product, a quality product, can sell.

Stop whining-continue innovating, as Spyderco as always done. May more "knockoffs" be produced to continue to provide the incentive for Spyderco and other well established manufacturers to introduce new products on the market. WE LIKE companies such as Spyderco to be pressured by knock-offs. YOU have the R&D, they just copy. NOW, produce a Military in M-2, and we will buy, and buy.

Yea right. Afraid to develop a new product to be "ripped off" by the "followers." No you are not, and don't represent that you are. Spyderco leads, and continues to lead the market, and WE WANT Spyderco to be pushed to market new products. Get to work…….

[This message has been edited by JP (edited 27 March 1999).]
 
I disagree. Knock offs do not make companies like Syderco and Benchmade more inovative--what they do is take away the initiative to make the newer and better knife due to losing profits. I mean, why be so innovative if someone is going to steal your design?

Look at the soft ware industry. Doesn't it cost more to make new soft ware programs since people are buying pirated versions, thus reducing the profit margin for the original company and making them charge more for their product?

I would think Spyderco et. al. are the same. And if it is, doesn't that mean that Knock offs will increase the cost to us ELU who want the real thing? Maybe making the cost out of our reach for the knives we want.

The bottom line is the knife manufacturers are going to make their profit---raising prices to compete against knock offs stealing their design could be very real.

Sal, am I off base here?

------------------

~Greg~
 
JP - you're hard. but if it's perceived as whining, I'll stop. Nobody likes a whiner. even me.

Greg - At Spyderco, prices are fixed to costs. We have our legal costs limit as well. Sometimes it's just less expensive to discontinue an item. We disconinued the "Merlin" several years ago because of a combination of factors that was geatly influenced by the large volume of "knock off" Merlins. The argument against us was that "Hawkbill" knives have been around a long time, and the "Knock offs are much cheaper.

However, I must say that I had never before seen a production knife with the "Hawkbill" shape of Spyderco's Harpy/Merlin. (This particular blade shape was designed to get into fish nets for repair).

We just brought the Merlin model back due to requests. We'll see how it fares against the "Knock off" competition.
sal
 
I'm newly bitten by the knife bug, but bitten hard nonetheless. Of course, I'm talking about knives all over the place. One co-oworker walks around decorated with knives. He carries a real Leatherman, BUT when I asked him about folders he pulls out a Spyderco look-alike. He says, "this thing cost $3. I bought 5 of 'em. I'm not spending a lot on a knife just to lose it or have it stolen. If they break, who cares?" He then demostrated it's cutting efficiency on cardboard box. It turns out he even made his own hunting knife out of 440C, and knows the difference between good and poor quality, but chooses to go cheap. I hadn't considered the rip-off angle, which is has been thoughtfully illuminated above. However, I silently rejected his philosophy, thinking, "I've got higher standards than to brad about a $3 knife!" I'm only in the shopping stage and I'm already being snobbish - I own a Buck hunter and a couple of fillet knives - as if I know anything. But, that guy simply relects the free choice of the market place. I think if I were BM or Spyderco, MT, or whomever, I would look into contracting a company to produce rip-offs of my own product. Guys going for the good stuff wouldn't touch it. Guys who don't know the difference couldn't care less, and if the design is good they'd love it. If the $ is going to be spent by someone to buy cheap knives, don't object. Give them a choice of grades of steel, finish work, whatever, and beat the rip-offs to market place.

I think this is less than .02; this rates about .015.
 
Jack, now thats interesting, say Spyderco should sell copies of their own designs! I think the successful knife companies are much more interested in the nature of their bussiness to do that. I may be wrong but I think that would go against alot of what say a company like Spyderco is all about. As for your coworker and a $3.00 knife, I hope it doesn't break at the wrong time. I have seen one of my friends severly injured when a blade broke right out of the handle on a $5.00 knife. It cost him about 10 stitches and $250 insurance deductable. He now uses an AFCK, he paid $95.00 for! Why not buy a knockoff Leatherman, for $7.99(Coleman at Kmart)....Oh well to each his own! Went to a knife show today and once again looked at some Masterknives and other copies. You get what you pay for. I'm sorry guys, I keep trying to buy one but can't get myself to do it
wink.gif
There was one dealer there that had a big bucket full of plastic look alike Delica's for a buck each. They were sitting outside his booth unattended, it kinda made me chuckle when I thought about this thread!
biggrin.gif
.....This is a very interesting thread if you read though the course of its spirit. Thanks Bart
 
Hmmm... Jack, correct me if I'm wrong, but are you trying to say "Fight fire with fire"?
If you are... well...
smile.gif
I think if it's cheap to produce knockoffs in the U.S., then these people in Taiwan/China wouldn't even be able to infiltrate the local market, right? But as it is, labor is so much cheaper there, so these knockoffs are far more inexpensive to produce... unless these US companies that will be producing knockoffs will start hiring asians as their workforce, thus paying cheaper salaries, maybe only then will they be able to compete. Dunno if I'm making any sense here, but bottom line is, overall cost, including manpower, is cheap in asian countries, that's why knockoffs abound there.

I'm from the Philippines, and we have what we call "Export Processing Zone" where international companies like Intel, NEC, etc... all have their products manufactured. Intel chips are exported from this end, as are from Malaysia. No Taiwan chips though, as far as I can tell. Salary-wise? I asked a couple of workers there, and their per-hour salary isn't even at par with the average one gets paid for if he was working in the States. Quality is pretty strict, to say the least. Overall? Lower cost of production, higher output. This is but one factor, but I believe a major one at that.

So much so for these knockoff companies. They steal a design, and are pretty wary about patent laws. Put a couple of design additions like a notch here, and some whatchamacallits there, and it's a totally new product.. there goes the patent for ya...

I tend to agree with Sal that they are the ones being ripped off in the end. They spent a lot for R&D, and others. Anybody been to Taiwan lately? I have.
smile.gif


In the interest of wanting to know more about these knockoff companies (not only knives, but pirated CDs as well, which was my main objective), I asked a couple of Taiwanese friends to bring me around, and look at these companies producing pirate copies of anything they can think of. They gladly obliged.

You guys would've been amazed... hehehe.. Outside, you see people packing stuffs like ceramic jars, glasses, etc.. But INSIDE.. gee.. looks like something out of the 23rd century.. There are machines that are producing knockoffs (from different firms) like fake rolex watches, alligator skin leather bracelets (for Breitling and others), CD multi-writers/stampers that I haven't seen before, knives (of interest to all. I noticed some cold steel fixed tanto knives as well, copied down to detail)... and a lot more.

Guys, these people have the TECHNOLOGY to copy. They have the labor AND the dough to do that too... It all started in the computer revolution, when they started manufacturing PC clones, in which they really started hitting it big time. IBM wasn't able to do s**t about it. It's basically a futile attempt to even try and stop them like fighting "fire with fire". What one has to do is to come up with something else. How does a company like Spyderco fight knockoffs without spending $$$ on legal matters, which would only "delay" but not entirely halt the process? I really don't have any idea for now. I guess this is a good thread to start amongst the manufacturers themselves. But legal means isn't the way to go here. These knockoff companies are just too wary of that, and have been prepared even before going into it.

Then again, this is already off-topic.
smile.gif
Orion was right, this topic is just about an inquiry as to who has some of these, and what they think of the knockoff knives. Everybody's going astray from the original thread already, getting involved both emotionally and psychologically.. hehehe.. But overall, it's a good topic nonetheless.

Dan
 
Phillipines - Show me a good product from an emerging democracy, and I'll buy! Assuming that any ideas that are copied are copied with permission, of course! Ditto on Taiwan. The "People's Republic" is another matter; intellectual property violations are the least of the regime's sins!

------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
 
James, unfortunately, we don't produce knockoff knives or folders here.. hehehe.
smile.gif
And regarding good products, ever heard of Victoria's Secrets? <grin> This may really be off-topic, but they are known to be one of the best (dare I say it??) lingerie <gasp!> brands right now..
smile.gif
Proudly Philippine made.. hehehehehe!!!
smile.gif
wanna buy? lol...

With regards to China, intellectual property? Don't you know that in communism, you share everything? There is no such thing as intellectual property rights. But more often than not, it's not them, but the shrewd businessmen taking advantage of the ultra-cheap labor (allbeit you get what you pay for) and the vast number of available workers willing to do robotic chores... you're in knockoff heaven.
smile.gif
And, of course the willingness of the government there to let go of copyright infringements because there ain't none to begin with as far as they are concerned... just the cashflow it will generate for them. I should know, I have cousins over there.. and believe me, life ain't treating them good, either...

Hmmm.. emerging democracy.. that sounds good, James. Sad to say, we have yet to see real democracy at work, even after all these years.
frown.gif
Missed a LOT of friends since the bases pulled out. Sorry for the off-topic 2-cents worth.

Dan

PS. PC Clones weren't made with permission when they started way back 1982 (in Taiwan), but look where they are now.. ugh...
 
Wow Orion you opened up a bigger can of worms than you thought huh? I can actually see both lines of thinking as far as "rip-offs" go. I suspect that I am more of a simple consumer when it comes to knives than many of you who are also dealers/designers.As such the thought of a $20 knife that has "borrowed" its design from a more established company and makes a decent product for the dollar seems appealing.It is kind of like generic drugs(in theory).One company spends millions on research and development and subsequently charges an exorbidant amount of money per pill while they hold the patent.Once the patent is gone then other companies can basically take the recipe and manufature the same quality product at a lower price.Now is this un-ethical? Maybe so,,but if you are the consumer are you gonna pay 10 bucks a pill or 2 bucks a pill? Obviously there is no direct parallel between knife making and the american health care system but industry is industry and I think you can see my point.In the case of the Socom scandal the quality is not the same but probably close enough for government work and cuttin'rope! Personally from a consumer standpoint I would buy a Masterknife (or whatever its called)if it was a good knife for the money.Micro-tech co. isn't gonna starve because of it..From the stand point that I live my life I probably wouldn't buy one of these knives since right or wrong I do not want any imitation sneakers,whiskey,or knives.Ill just spend and extra 15 bucks and buy a spyderco endura to use as my beat around knife..
 
Dannyc

I guess I'm just looking around at what I see in the market place. Companies offer various grades of products. For example, Sage fly rods range in price from around $200 all the way to around $600 (wives hate that version) - same size, same line weights, but lower technology and material quality (usually klutzier, less refined, less sensative). Someone is going to buy $200 rods from someone - Sage just makes sure it gets a piece of that action. Spinning reels made by say Diawa range in price from $20 all the way to $400. With knives, (and I admit to knowing NOTHING about how to build them) I wonder how much $ could be saved if say less effort were devoted to finish work, light weight, and grade of steel. Screw the fine polishing, what's a few rough edges, accept precision, buy tons of AUS 6, bulk 'em up a little for extra robustness to compensate for inferior materials. The product could look pretty much like it's high end prototype, but not be anywhere near it in quality. Don't use US workers. If Asian companies are producing them right now as knock-offs anyway, I would try hiring the same companies to make mine. Really reputable US companies might find that abhorant and beneath their dignity, but I would look at it not as dabbling in inferior products but as protecting my investment. One could argue that by using Asian firms we'd be screwing US workers, but knock-offs are not being produced domestically anyway. The argument that it would screw Asian workers, which someone often raises, is hard to make. They're working for a knock-off company right now - they could just as well work for mine. I wouldn't even look at it as fighting fire with fire so much as competing in a market which I'm currently ignoring, while ensuring a maximum market return on my R&D and technology. After all, if their technology weren't being raided, our good companys couldn't care less about someone making cheap knives. They could devote that branch of their operations to getting the best quality knives (which might not be all that great), to the greatest number of people, at the lowest possible price. In the end, it may be only way for our really great US knife makers to protect themselves.

And rest assured, I would still buy the high end stuff which I'm coming to know and love.

Still less then .02 worth.

Jack
 
This thread is getting long enough, let's start a new one if this topic still needs it.

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
This thread is getting long enough, let's start a new one if this topic still needs it.

------------------
Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top