Materials or Design and Function?

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clearkevin

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Oct 7, 2014
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I would like to hear everyone's take on this, if you see a design that you really like or perhaps you even get a knife in hand and think it's comfortable and has descent lock up and deployment but then you see the steel is 8CR or 440 or some other budget steel. Do you pass on it? I ask because I have experienced many times telling people about what I think is a rather good knife but it has 8CR13MOV and the response is a resounding "nope" the steel sucks. First do we really used our knives enough that edge retention needs to be a major consideration? Second are you always happy to pay more for better steel? Two examples come to mind the Large Pilar I like the Satin better but it's only available in 8CR, another knife that fits this description is the CRKT Caligo fantastic knife but with 8CR. I just picked on these two models because I think most are familiar with them but many others could be mentioned. Do you have any knives that you love but which are sporting a less than stellar steel?
 
Let me hasten to add that I'm as guilty as anyone, I really am on the fence about the Large Pilar over nothing other than the blade steel.
 
The steel doesn't much matter to me, but 8cr is mainland China almost exclusively and that I won't buy.
 
Different people respond to tools and equipment in different ways and will end up with vastly different opinions on this.

I would like to say that for me, design and functionality trump materials but will readily admit that aesthetics are very important to me. My 2 most commonly carried knives are a Buck 110 and an Opinel 9, but I'm just a sucker for traditional folders, so there you have it.

I also genuinely prefer easy to sharpen fine grained steels so long as they have decent heat treat. Buck's 420HC and Opinel's 12C27 suit me well. <discussion of easy to sharpen>|/dev/null

Across the board I prefer low cost/high value things. I drive a Toyota. Wear Merrells and Dickies. A Timex or Casio watch depending on the day. My bike is steel and the tires cost $30. My skis are old. I carry a Kelty frame pack on the trail. My pack stoves are a Trangia or a Svea. My guns are all old - most more than a century. I like stuff that is reliable, proven and that doesn't break the bank.

Others will prefer to drive fancier cars, flashier clothing, more expensive watches, better hiking gear and more expensive guns. They'll probably carry knives with more expensive steels. <discussion of the benefits of better steels>|/dev/null.
 
All of them, for me. Nowadays I try to stay away from knives of steels lesser than VG10, but the handle material does not matter that much. After that come the design and function. The knife must be visually appealing (design) and function reliably and safely.
 
If the design is interesting, I really don't care about materials. The biggest part of my collection is Kershaws and CRKTs.
Two of my favorite knives are with 8CR13MOV, and it works fine.
 
thankfully, these days you don't really have to choose, better steels are already being used in most of the designs (that are good imho)

8cr13 isn't 'bad' in and of itself, but quality HT really is key to making them perform, ...
for the companies who are making a design for such a low price, have they also 'cut back' (skimped) on HT? or QC?

It's very encouraging that some of them have resisted that temptation, or found a way to minimize HT costs without sacrificing quality
(it probably helps that power/electricity is almost free in china) so that's a whole other discussion
 
As long as the HT is done well, 8CR will be okay, but it's pretty boring.
I prefer a steel that's a little better.
 
It’s often the case that 8cr13mov signals a decision on the part of the maker to prioritize profit at a low price point. While build quality won’t always be bad on models with 8cr13mov, it’s not incredibly common to find anyone raving about how well put together a knife featuring that steel is. In contrast, other knives at entry price points (Ruike, SanRenMu, Ganzo, etc) often exhibit better build quality and material at the same or lower price points as Kershaw or CRKT models in 8cr13mov.

As for use... yes, I use my knives enough that 8cr13mov would be on the wrong side of a tipping point for me. For example, I tracked cutting at work one day a week or two ago and cut (exactly) 72 zip ties, about 100 feet of cardboard, and 30 or so plastic banding straps. 8cr13mov doesn’t play well with that kind of use, which I know from past experience with two different samples. Anything above about 154CM, treated well, works great for me.

The Pilar is the only 8cr13mov design I’ve even considered in years. Beautiful design. Unnecessarily chunky blade, but beautiful design.
 
Curb appeal usually get me to look closer. Then reputable companies/makers. Locking mechanisms are a deal breaker and steel usually comes after. Now don’t get me wrong I really like knowing what blade steel is used but in most cases if all of the other boxes are checked the quality of steel is more than substantial.

I love the CRKT M16-14SFG by design, blade shape, feel in hand and I do wish it was offered in a better steel but the lock mechanism and execution of are deal breakers. After 4 years of use I could not count on the lock anymore.
 
I will absolutely not touch anything with S30V or any of the Chinese steels.

I want a Spyderco Mantra 3, but won't but because of the steel.
 
I'm not gonna buy a Titantium Flipper with Carbon Fiber and an 8CR Blade, nor would I buy a M-Tech "Quality" Knife with a 20CV blade. The knife needs to make sense overall in terms of materials, F&F and price.
 
I won't get the Pilar for multiple reasons. Poor quality, bad qc, bad tolerances, low quality Teflon washers, low end materials, bad and or soft heat treatment (includes there other steel options) and it's crkt.

Over pricing knives that have all these issues.

Generally a $5-12 knife to manufacture and markup alot.

Making designs people like with these imho bad issues without a nicer variety.

On top of that they are trying to force prices
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/crkt-upp.1645837/


So


This is why I don't buy crkt.


On the topic of steel... I like to buy the heat treatment, not the steel composition. It's unfortunate but a 20 to 50 generally don't have good heat treatment.

Crkt can s35vn, M390 or d2 all the knafs... A better steel composition with a Poor heat treatment doesnt mean it's going to be better. Your just over paying for a name at that point. Performance that barely performs as good as the other budget steel they were using before it.
 
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I currently have around 35 knives and I've given away around 35. I try not to buy new knives that aren't an improvement on my collection. I only have one 8Cr13MoV knife - a CRKT M4-02 in white bone and black G-10. It was one of the first knives in my collection, and I've found nothing to replace it. Most new knives in lower end steels don't improve on what I've got. I think a good design with a trusted brand or designer and thinner handle thickness are my driving factors.
 
I am one that doesn't need to use my EDC very often, and when I do it's usually for pretty mundane things, so don't really need a super steel. So I guess I'm of like mind as 3fifty7, but like b00n said, it also doesn't make sense for there to be a big mismatch between the quality of steel and everything else.
 
Mo2 said:
I won't get the Pilar for multiple reasons. Poor quality bad qc, bad tolerances, low quality Teflon washers, low end materials, bad and or soft heat treatment (includes there other steel options) and it's crkt.

Over pricing knives that have all these issues.

Generally a $5-12 knife to manufacture and markup alot.

Making designs people like with these imho bad issues without a nicer variety.

On top of that they are trying to force prices
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/crkt-upp.1645837/


So


This is why I don't buy crkt.


On the topic of steel... I like to buy the heat treatment, not the steel composition. It's unfortunate but a 20 to 50 generally don't have good heat treatment.

Crkt can s35vn, M390 or d2 all the knafs... Poor heat treatment doesnt mean it's going to be better. Your just over paying for a name at that point. Performance that barely performs as good as the other budget steel they were using before it.
Click to expand...
Wow CRKT is really being miserable here, although I doubt they would stick to their guns of Walmart had an issue with this. I really don't know what they are trying to achieve here other than to push retailers toward other companies like the Ruike and or RealSteel.
 
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clearkevin said:
I would like to hear everyone's take on this, if you see a design that you really like or perhaps you even get a knife in hand and think it's comfortable and has descent lock up and deployment but then you see the steel is 8CR or 440 or some other budget steel. Do you pass on it?
Click to expand...
Nope, don't pass on it.

clearkevin said:
I ask because I have experienced many times telling people about what I think is a rather good knife but it has 8CR13MOV and the response is a resounding "nope" the steel sucks. First do we really used our knives enough that edge retention needs to be a major consideration? Do you pass on it?
Click to expand...
Most of us don't use anything other than our kitchen knives enough to warrant even worrying about edge retention at all.

Nope, don't pass on it.

clearkevin said:
Second are you always happy to pay more for better steel? Do you pass on it?
Click to expand...
No, I'm not always happy to pay for 'better' steel.

Yes, sometimes I pass on it.

clearkevin said:
Two examples come to mind the Large Pilar I like the Satin better but it's only available in 8CR, another knife that fits this description is the CRKT Caligo fantastic knife but with 8CR. I just picked on these two models because I think most are familiar with them but many others could be mentioned. Do you have any knives that you love but which are sporting a less than stellar steel?
Click to expand...

I've used knives in 'lesser' and in 'better' steels. I like the way S30V cuts, but I don't like sharpening it. I stopped chasing steels at S30V because I know that anything more wear resistant, and anything that gets harder, will only take longer and be harder to sharpen. I don't own knives just so I have something to sharpen, I own knives because they are tools. I use my tools for field dressing and butchering animals. To prepare food every single day. To shape wood as a hobby; and to open Amazon packages.

My favorite boning knives are made by Henckels, F. Dick, and Chicago Cutlery. They are made from some nameless industrial stainless steel (probably not the same steel, but 3 slightly different industrial stainless steels) and hardened on the soft end of the scale. My favorite kitchen knife is a K Sabatier in 1075 at 54RC or so. I've field dressed deer with blades in 1095, 8CR13MOV, 420HC, and whatever scalpels are made of. I've NEVER once had to stop in the middle of field dressing a deer to sharpen my knife, nor have I ever felt a need to sharpen my knife when moving from one deer to the next field dressing two or 3 in a row. I swipe my boning knives over a steel a couple of times as I'm butchering, and my chef knife gets steeled before I start prepping food. The idea of having a knife I can't simply steel before/while working or that I can't sharpen in a minute or so is unappealing.
 
8cr is fine. So long as the company it comes from is reputable (ht & qc are good). Also, the cost must meet the materials and quality, given the country of manufacture. I've got a good idea of what an 8cr knife from China should cost. I also think I have a grasp on how properly 8cr should perform. And lastly, I want a well made knife. Many companies can't consistently provide this for my needs with this steel, including ones mentioned in this thread (crkt failed for me constantly).

The steel isn't the issue with knives made from it.
 
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