May Finally Buy an XM-18

[RIPtastic]

They are well made knives. A step above any big knife manufacturers offerings including ZT. They have the same predictability with them as CRKs. They
will always lock up like a bank vault, have centered blades, no lock stick, just all around well made. So then it just comes down to the design and if it fits
you well. Their not the best slicers or flippers but they are very rugged and will serve you well.

 

[jstn]

I've owned 4 XM 18s and darn near every ZT folder made. I no longer own any of either, but if I had to have one, it would be a ZT 562. For me, the only plus side of the XM was it didn't have bearings which I dislike. The XMs are very well made, but mine were terrible flipper. The ZTs flip like a dream, but I personally am not a framelock guy, and the bearing flippers always get gritty when I have them out in the field.

 

[mjpgolf1]

They are well made knives. A step above any big knife manufacturers offerings including ZT. They have the same predictability with them as CRKs. They
will always lock up like a bank vault, have centered blades, no lock stick, just all around well made. So then it just comes down to the design and if it fits
you well. Their not the best slicers or flippers but they are very rugged and will serve you well.

I just can't let this statement pass by here, but the craftsmanship and predictability of a CRK is not the same as a Hinderer. Read thru the threads about bad detents, not being able to flip, and other complaints. CRK is in a different league. Sure Hinderer makes a very solid chunk of titanium, but it's not in any way the find craftsmanship and perfect finishing of a Chris Reeve knife.

I'm not trying to start up this argument again as we've been thru it a million times. I just hate when I hear that Hinderer knives are on par with CRK. Out of all the Hinderers I've ever held at least half of them had some issue with flipping or detent being weak or something of the like. I have never picked up a CRK that had any kind of issue whatsoever. End of story. Hinderers are awesome for what they are, and they are cool, but let's not get too carried away.

 

[RIPtastic]

The weaker detents have always been intentional. They just recently have started to make them with stronger detents. As far as flippers go they never
were good flippers even with a strong detent. They are riding on teflon washers. When I say the same predictability as CRK's is that you'll rarely ever get a lemon.
Because they don't flip like bearing flippers has nothing to do with the quality in which they are made.

 

[jill jackson]

They are horrible flippers, for sure.

[video=youtube;1FqxxE5aVlY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FqxxE5aVlY[/video]

 

[Sonnydaze]

I am also interested in hearing what people who have both brands would say. I have seven ZTs and zero Hinderer. All those ZTs are rock solid and have no issue big or small whatsoever. Three of them are ZT/Hinderer. I want to see what else better a Hinderer knife can and will offer, in addition to the name.

I have owned at least twenty ZT's, and two XM's.
Conclusions:
1. For ME, ALL XM's are much too heavy, and the 3.5" spanto will fall open in your pocket.
2. For my use, nearly all ZT's are much too heavy and/or heavy-duty, but are generally great folders.

I had a XM-18 3.5 spanto and a 3" slicer for a total of $1475. This was perhaps four yrs ago when these things were sky-high in price. I sold both within two wks. The 3" slicer was too heavy, the blade is too fat, the closed length MUCH too short for my hand. The spanto blade is too thick; won't slice and has a nearly zero detent. Bad news.

Now, for those first responders and/or folks who need/use something that is very heavy-duty, the XM's and nearly all ZT's are outstanding choices. There are only a few ZT's which weigh in at/or under five ounces, and are about 4.7" in closed length, and these are my favorite choices for my rather casual use.

Note that for you Cadillac guys, the CRK's (lge Sebbie and Zaan) are right at, or just under five ounces and I don't want greater weight in my pocket than that. I have carried CRK's for four yrs or so, but not recently. Okay...recently it's been a Brad Southard AVO, and it's been with me constantly for 18 months. Lovely folder.

I presently own one ZT 0808, and it's a great folder for ME...casual-use me. I've had many 0550's in various generations, 0560's (run thru the related models), several 0450's, one 0566 and two models of the 0770 (Elmax and M390). These 0770's are nice knives but much too short in the grip for my hand...OR, in the case of the 0566...too heavy in my pocket.

The 0808 is the ticket. I may not be in love with the blade shape or the S35VN blade-steel, but ZT...I love ya and this model is the only one I want for now. The size and weight are just right; the steel is satisfactory for general purpose; it's a smooth manual flipper and works great.

 

[Biginboca]

I like the XM18, have owned over 20 during the last 10 years. My collection currently consists of 5 knives 3 of which are XM18's, lol

I have also owned about 20 CRK Sebenzas in various flavors and some have opened in my pocket. I have also owned about 10 ZT knives.

If you want an XM18 nothing else will do. Simple as that! You need to own and handle one to settle your desires. The best flavor of XM18 if someone wants a true flipper is the Spearpoint with CPM20CV. That run had fairly strong detents and the blade is lighter than the Spanto and Skinner, which helps flipping action. I have owned 2 of these versions and they are the best flipping Hinderers I have had, especially if you take 5 minutes and bend the lockbar a bit so the detent is stronger. I have one now that I guarantee no one on this board could shake the blade out and it fires like a rocket with the flipper. Just like a ZT0562! But it's now a dedicated flipper and the thumbstuds are really tough to use, also like a 0562.

I have also had to bend the lockbar on Sebenzas so they didn't open in my pocket too, btw.

A Spearpoint XM18 with CPM20CV is the way to go. Excellent edge holding, great flipper, excellent cutter with some beef at the tip. (More beef than any ZT model.). They are the most underrated of all the XM's made, IMO, and worth hunting one down for your first XM. If after 25 years of collecting knives I had to select one knife to own, well this would be it.

And of course this thread needs a pic!

 

[SunOfAtom]

I am a big fan of ZT and have owned 4, including the 0566 and 0562CF. While my 0562 is functionally perfect, I never really carried it. I figured it was just bigger than I wanted for edc, and kept hoping ZT would make a 3" Hinderer collab. When Hinderer secondary market prices dropped down, I picked up a 3" XM to see what they were all about. I liked it so much I bought a second 3". Even though the 3.5" XM is the same size (and thicker) as the 0562, I still felt the need to try one. Oddly enough, it has not left my pocket since I got it. I absolutely love the 3.5" XM, something I never felt about the 0562. I now own 4 XMs and my 0562 is for sale.

People say that Hinderers do not flip like a ZT because they are not dedicated flippers. I used to write this off as making excuses for poor flipping action until I actually tried one. You do have to strike a fine balance on detent strength to be able to open a knife multiple ways. I did not think I was that big on using thumb studs, but after carrying the XM, flipper-only knives have lost much of their appeal to me.

I do obsess a little on smoothness, so I swapped the Teflon washers for pb. It is an easy and inexpensive modification, and I think it makes a nice difference if you open and close knives just for enjoyment.

 

[mjpgolf1]

I like the XM18, have owned over 20 during the last 10 years. My collection currently consists of 5 knives 3 of which are XM18's, lol

I have also owned about 20 CRK Sebenzas in various flavors and some have opened in my pocket. I have also owned about 10 ZT knives.

If you want an XM18 nothing else will do. Simple as that! You need to own and handle one to settle your desires. The best flavor of XM18 if someone wants a true flipper is the Spearpoint with CPM20CV. That run had fairly strong detents and the blade is lighter than the Spanto and Skinner, which helps flipping action. I have owned 2 of these versions and they are the best flipping Hinderers I have had, especially if you take 5 minutes and bend the lockbar a bit so the detent is stronger. I have one now that I guarantee no one on this board could shake the blade out and it fires like a rocket with the flipper. Just like a ZT0562! But it's now a dedicated flipper and the thumbstuds are really tough to use, also like a 0562.

I have also had to bend the lockbar on Sebenzas so they didn't open in my pocket too, btw.

A Spearpoint XM18 with CPM20CV is the way to go. Excellent edge holding, great flipper, excellent cutter with some beef at the tip. (More beef than any ZT model.). They are the most underrated of all the XM's made, IMO, and worth hunting one down for your first XM. If after 25 years of collecting knives I had to select one knife to own, well this would be it.

And of course this thread needs a pic!

Cmon man, really? You've had a Sebenza open in your pocket? I have never read, nor heard, nor seen, anyone ever say this. I get you like Hinderer and want to support your brand. We all get a little defensive when someone says something they don't like about something we own and paid good money for. But I have NEVER heard of a CRK opening in a pocket because of a bad detent.

I actually just did a search while I was typing this just to be sure because you had me thinking. The only thing I found was a guy was able to get a Sebenza blade to open a bit when he put all his might behind it and was snapping it towards the floor. The general consensus of that was the detent was fine and that any knife will open if you shake it hard enough.

 

[blades&wrenches]

Cmon man, really? You've had a Sebenza open in your pocket? I have never read, nor heard, nor seen, anyone ever say this. I get you like Hinderer and want to support your brand. We all get a little defensive when someone says something they don't like about something we own and paid good money for. But I have NEVER heard of a CRK opening in a pocket because of a bad detent.

I actually just did a search while I was typing this just to be sure because you had me thinking. The only thing I found was a guy was able to get a Sebenza blade to open a bit when he put all his might behind it and was snapping it towards the floor. The general consensus of that was the detent was fine and that any knife will open if you shake it hard enough.

Just BC its not documented, doesnt mean it didn't happen. Sometimes wierd crap occurs that we cant explain.
Personally, Ive had 2 different ZTs open in my pocket; a 0200 and a 0550 (twice). Dont know how it happened, but it did. Both exhibited very good detents and took a decent shake to open. I assume I hit the flipper just right on the 0200, but how the 0550 managed to do it twice is still a mystery.
And I never told anyone or documented any of these openings until now.

 

[mjpgolf1]

Just BC its not documented, doesnt mean it didn't happen. Sometimes wierd crap occurs that we cant explain.
Personally, Ive had 2 different ZTs open in my pocket; a 0200 and a 0550 (twice). Dont know how it happened, but it did. Both exhibited very good detents and took a decent shake to open. I assume I hit the flipper just right on the 0200, but how the 0550 managed to do it twice is still a mystery.
And I never told anyone or documented any of these openings until now.

I completely agree with you however just because a knife opens doesn't mean that a company now has shoddy workmanship and bad detents. The detent issue with the Hinderer is well documented and fairly common. Comparing that issue with a CRK that opened in someone's pocket one time is just not at all a fair comparison. There is no question that Hinderer makes a solid knife. But you can't compare it's craftsmanship consistencies with CRK. Hinderer is just not at that level.

 

[Biginboca]

Cmon man, really? You've had a Sebenza open in your pocket? I have never read, nor heard, nor seen, anyone ever say this. I get you like Hinderer and want to support your brand. We all get a little defensive when someone says something they don't like about something we own and paid good money for. But I have NEVER heard of a CRK opening in a pocket because of a bad detent.

I actually just did a search while I was typing this just to be sure because you had me thinking. The only thing I found was a guy was able to get a Sebenza blade to open a bit when he put all his might behind it and was snapping it towards the floor. The general consensus of that was the detent was fine and that any knife will open if you shake it hard enough.

It's documented 6 years ago by me. There are other cases I have seen also. I don't enjoy my integrity being questioned. See Post 31...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ge-Sebenza-vs-Umnumzaan?p=7898274#post7898274

 

[unwisefool]

I had the tip of my umnunzaan pop out a little in my pocket and poke me pretty good once. I never posted about it and still use it. So it's feasible that it could happen.

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk

 

[blades&wrenches]

Hinderer is just not at that level.

I respectfully disagree here. You dont think that RHK could stiffen the detent, use different washers, and make them dedicated flippers that rocket out if they wanted to? Everything they have designed was done with purpose. Weaker detents to accommodate several opening options, teflon washers that provide natural low friction and corrosion resistance. And they have stiffened the detents on the Gen 4s to aid in flipping while still being able to manipulate the stud. Turning design characteristics into flaws BC its not the way you think it should be, and saying they're not on the same level is an unfair statement. But this is my opinion, and I respect yours as well.
This has always and will continue to be an apples to oranges comparison.

 

[unwisefool]

I wonder if they can adjust older xm18's to have a stronger detent?

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk

 

[blades&wrenches]

I wonder if they can adjust older xm18's to have a stronger detent?

Sent from my D6708 using Tapatalk

Im sure they could, but they wont. Its clearly written in their website on their service/warranty page. Its not difficult to do though. Slightly tweaking the lockbar is the easiest way, and you can also bore/enlarge the detent hole on the blade ever so slightly. Of course, any mod will void warranty.

 

[Need2Know]

I have been able to find a sweet spot on most every if not all my "older" XMs that allows them to flip but not fall open...but some need the lightsswitch pre-load the flipper method. The knives were designed as tools that could be opened even with heavily gloved hands. The XM allows for opening where other knives prove more difficult. And the flipper as a finger guard is great when dexterity is compromised or feel is impeded by thick gloves, etc.

Plus the flipper name for XMs was because the knife had a flipper not because it flips open. Fast forward to newer production and I believe the detents were strengthened because more XMs are available to the masses. So a once purpose designed tool is now more accessible changing its path a bit.

 

[mjpgolf1]

It's documented 6 years ago by me. There are other cases I have seen also. I don't enjoy my integrity being questioned. See Post 31...

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ge-Sebenza-vs-Umnumzaan?p=7898274#post7898274

No one is questioning your integrity. It's a knife man. Relax. Regardless it's still not a widespread issue like Hinderer is. Everyone has their preference. If everyone liked the same stuff it would be boring. But the truth is that there are more issues documented with Hinderer knives and waaaaaaay more people complaining and saying that they aren't worth the money. It's a numbers game and the numbers don't stack up as well for Hinderer as they do for CRK.

 

[mjpgolf1]

I respectfully disagree here. You dont think that RHK could stiffen the detent, use different washers, and make them dedicated flippers that rocket out if they wanted to? Everything they have designed was done with purpose. Weaker detents to accommodate several opening options, teflon washers that provide natural low friction and corrosion resistance. And they have stiffened the detents on the Gen 4s to aid in flipping while still being able to manipulate the stud. Turning design characteristics into flaws BC its not the way you think it should be, and saying they're not on the same level is an unfair statement. But this is my opinion, and I respect yours as well.
This has always and will continue to be an apples to oranges comparison.

Then why don't they? Why do they continue to make flippers that don't flip? Why do their knives have weak, and in some cases almost no detent. It's not about what someone "could" do. It's about what they do now. And the truth is that they don't stack up and they just aren't in the same league. As I stated above, there are way more complaints about Hinderer knives and the very well documented issues that they have than there are people complaining about CRK.

Keep in mind that I'm not the one that came in here and stated that Hinderer is on par with CRK. I didn't take this down this road. I'm simply repeating what I've observed over the years. I love the design of Hinderer knives and Rick obviously isn't hurting from the bad press floating around about the issues with his knives. But you can't deny that there are more issues documented with Hinderer. It's really no secret. People will still buy them though, hell, if I came across the right deal I would also buy one. They are a beast of a knife, but they are very different and finished for different purposes than CRK.

 

[RIPtastic]

The flipper is just another option for blade deployment. Its not a dedicated flipper. The thumb studs on the xm actually work as thumb studs which wouldn't be possible with a very strong detent.
As far as way more complaints Im not sure how you came to that conclusion. Just by what you have observed over the years?

"As I stated above, there are way more complaints about Hinderer knives and the very well documented issues that they have than there are people complaining about CRK."

This statement reads as a fact with which Im sure more than a few people would disagree with because there is no good method to come to that conclusion.