MBC Knife Questions

There has been some discussion in this forum of some new Spyderco Martial Bladecraft Knives, and matching trainers for safe practice, which would be marketed in a different catalog and maybe through different channels than Spyderco's standard line. I understand that Spyderco wouldn't want to see its "scariest" products coming to the attention of the assistant principal of a middle school, or showing up in a press conference as the "weapon of choice" of some bad element.

Are there any details available yet on how one would qualify to buy or sell the MBC series? Would one have to be in law enforcement or military or organized martial arts circles?

Does Spyderco have any plans to make "trainers" for any standard models, such as the Delica?

Will the "MBC" models be knives that not even James It's a garden tool!" Mattis couldn't present as working knives? (I'm still trying to think of a mundane use for that M.O.D. Massad Ayood Razorback!)

Will a civilian who carries a knife that is a purpose-built martial bladecraft knife, marketed as such through martial bladecraft channels, be in grave danger of violating the maxim, "Never tell a cop you're carrying a knife 'for protection'!"? Even for police, an "edged weapon" may be politically incorrect. Or would it be better to learn and practice emergency uses for one's work/rescue/picnic knife?


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Sal Glesser

Sal Glesser

Moderator
Joined
Dec 27, 1998
Messages
11,668
James - Given your first paragraph, let me ask you.

I would like to produce a line of knives that are purpose built to help trained "good guys" deter "bad guys". "Bad guys" being defined as "A person that is intentionally and aggressively attempting to physically hurt another person in an anti-social or illegal manner". (Please don't banter the semantics of the definition. we can do that on another thread if interested).

I do not want to have my hands tied by "why do you have this?". I would like the opportunity to provide the best "real" tools
for the "real" world.

We prefer to avoid open marketing because this does to some degree limit their procurement by the "less responsible" humans. That is the reason for the LEO & MCB catalog. (this does not yet exist. Pleeeaassse DO NOT call the sales dept and ask for it)

So I ask you. What would you do and how would you do it? Keep the models available to the "right" element, difficult for the "wrong" element to obtain.

Spyderco does not want to be "branded" as a maker of "evil" weapons, yet we still want to be able to use our design & manufacturing skills to provide "effective" solutions.

So, How do you think we can accomplish this honorably & with dignity?

sal



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"There seems to be an amazing connection between what people do... and what happens to them"


 
Sal: I usually refrain from commenting on the "open forums" and keep to the safety of the self defense world in the Tactics section...but this effects me.
Personally I feel the best way to stop the bad image of the "fighting Knife" ( semantics aside!) is to LEAD from the front teaching the realities of using an edged TOOL in a self defense situation To lead from the front by saying this is acceptable to do and this isn't. That this is morally correct and anything else or misuse of this specially designed edged tool is irresponsible and makes one as slimey as the BG...One needs to lead the way BY EXAMPLE. That means adverstising, VIDEOS, and articles in martial arts magazines, knife magazines EXPLAINING and detailing SPYDERCOs commitment to self defense and saving lives by producing edged tools that can be used as defensive tools!
Limit the market? Limit accesibility? That leads to the ILLUSION and connotations that only some are qualified to get these knives BECAUSE they are different in some way from other edged tools!Let training, education and responsible usage be the guide to limit these edged tools.... a seperate catalog? Ok as long as its available to those that ask..
again lead from the front not from the back..
As for designing trainers? Well you know how I feel. No knife that is made, that has the ability to be used as a defensive tool should be made WITHOUT a trainer...mine certainly won't! LOL! One needs to feel steel to understand what can and will happen in real time using an edged tool.
SPYDERCO is the Leading Edge..lets keep it that way.

 
I also resent and dislike the terms KNIFE-FIGHTING...weapons, Fighting knives etc..This are edged tools that are used in contemporary knife craft skills that could be used as self defense tools if needed!
"Fighting knives" are a TOTALLY different animal...
Martial arts knives, LEO knives also have connotations to it DEPENDING on which world one is in when one says these names..They have NO Bad connotations in MY WORLD....
I'm not sure of WHAT to call them..LOL!

 
Difficult queston. No easy answers.

The blurb on my web page and letterhead says "Good tools to sustain life, or at least make life more convenient." (The "Chai" in Chai Cutlery is the Hebrew word for "Life.") I understand that self-defense is a life-sustaining purpose, and so do most people who read this forum.

Out in the world, where most people still don't know what a blade hole and a pocket clip are for, the idea self-defense with a knife is considered gross and awful and hopelessly politically incorrect. There are places in the USA where one may legally carry a gun, but not a "dagger." That is why it is important for us civilians to be able to say, with a straight face, why we would still carry our high-performance matter separators in a perfectly peaceful world.

But sometimes good people need weapons. Given the widespread aversion reaction to the mere thought of self-defense by cutting the bad guy's tendons and blood vessels (as opposed to severe blunt trauma or even gunshot wounds!!), discretion is advisable. Self-defense with deadly force in the gravest extreme is not a sin, and neither is sex in a marriage, but married couples still close the curtains.

I have grumbled in knife forms and in letters to the editor of knife publications about blood-and-guts knife marketing and the indiscrete advertising of "edged weapons," so I appreciate and welcome Spyderco's intent to take the high road. But I don't have a good road map to the high road, which is why I'm asking questions.

How to market weapon-grade knives to good people and not to the bad guys? Or maybe to people of at least average intelligence? If any of us come up with a good answer to that one, we should be sure to share it with the gun industry!

Advertising could be by mail to "desirable" targets, maybe. Civilian sales only to people who have also enrolled in some sort of disciplined martial arts instruction? Or who paid a surcharge a bad guy wouldn't want to pay, to support some sort of relentlessly peaceful charity?

. . . Leaving the bad guys to do what they do with cheap kitchen knives, box cutters, POS clones, etcetera.

I think I have more questions than answers.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Some more thoughts . . .

If the MBC knife is not going to a public/emergency service customer, or military, or a reputable martial arts school, but to some other individual, perhaps it should only go together with the trainer and the video, which in turn would be terribly responsible on matters like "combat avoidance" and "gravest extreme."

All the knives numbered, customers identified?

Would the Matriarch become part of this program? The Civilian?


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
Hmm... This is a difficult question.

Basically, the more often knives are promoted as weapons, the less knives you're going to sell overall; and this goes for the entire industry.

We're a long way from the Wild West days. It's simply not socially acceptable to carry a weapon in modern America. I think it's better to try to convince people that knives are not weapons, than to try to convince people that there is nothing wrong with carrying a weapon.

If you're going to market some products as weapons, I'd say keep them as far away from the public eye as possible. I ain't saying it's right, just that it makes good buisness sense.

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Cerulean

What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain? - Blake
 
I wholeheartedly agree with the replies so far, especially that Sal's questions are difficult to answer.

One easily addressable point is the naming of knives. I remember a lot of forumites joking about the name of AFCK being changed to 'Advanced Folding Camping Knife', but what is gained by having 'Combat' in the name?

Everyone jokes about sheeple, but unfortunately they are the majority. Not to say that bowing to the majority is right, but I see nothing lost by avoiding the naming of knives that eludes to combat/defense when they are 99.999% utilitarian.
 
You put the word "combat" in a name with intent...Either it is an intentional description of the knife's function/purpose or it is a marketing tool. (In the case of the AFCK, it is probably best left to the owner to decide which is which.)
Back to Mr. Mattis' brief issue of numbering the knives and the possibility of identifying the owners. Registering the knives seems the most reliable way to keep owners of purpose-driven martial blades "honest". Personally, I'm not a huge fan of people having information about me at their fingertips, but if that is the price I have to pay to carry the tool of my choice then I will accept it. I've often wondered why some states will allow concealed carry of firearms (with a permit) but not allow that courtesy to people who enjoy good cutlery. AKTI, here I come!
Happy New Year!
-Jim
 
When you talk about registering knives, you forget that it isn't as easy to trace a slash or stab as it is to identify the rifling marks from a gun. So someone gets killed with a knife? Do we assume that the killer is wielding an MBC, and immediately arrest all "licensed" MBC carriers in the county, so that we may compare their blades with the cuts on the victim's body?
It makes more sense to me to simply market this knife, without an emphasis on its combative aspects. Those who know what makes a good fighting/combat/self-defense/martial bladecraft/killing thangs knife, will know. Those who shouldn't, won't be attracted.
 
....licensing???
....registering???
....identifying???

shivvvvver

[This message has been edited by Chinook (edited 01-02-2000).]
 
More thoughts . . .

Keeping bad guys from doing willful damage with knives is beyond Spyderco's power.

Keeping all bad guys from doing any willful damage with Spyderco MBC knives is also beyond Spyderco's power.

But reducing the odds . . . maybe.

Sal and Spyderco would naturally prefer that bad guys repent and not do willful damage with knives or anything else, but failing that, they would prefer that bad guys not do willful damage with Spyderco MBC knives, doing ugly things to Spyderco's karma and Spyderco's and the knife industry's public repute.

So the idea is to make Spyderco MBC knives less attractive to bad guys.

If he has to go to SFO or an authorized Spyderco dealer (at a store or on the Net), and get the Whole Package, and maybe do a modest Good Deed as part of the transaction (Denver Children's Hospital?), maybe he'll forget about getting that way cool Spydie MBC and settle for something he already owns, or can get a the flea market.


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- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com
AKTI Member # SA00001
 
I like Burke's idea, except for one aspect. When it comes to knowing what makes a good fighting/combat/self-defense... etc. knife, the bad guy that has been to prison probably knows this better than I do.
frown.gif


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"Absolute safety is for those who don't have the balls to live in the real world."

[This message has been edited by rockspyder (edited 01-03-2000).]
 
It's not that difficult to answer those questions, IMHO... Just go to BRAM's, Burke's and Chinook's posts, they've pretty much said it.

Someone claimed it's not "socially acceptable" to carry a weapon in modern America... If this is so, how can you explain the majority of States adopting "shall issue" concealed carry laws in recent years?

Self-protection is one of the most basic of Human Rights, and no political agenda or media disinformation campaign can change that. Let's fight for what's right, before we all become slaves to the "politically correct"

Sorry about the rant.

Regards,

Leo Daher
 

I think that Spyderco has done a fine job in naming their knives. They seem to go out of their way not to call their knives THE COMBAT SLASHER or what ever it takes to sell a knife. They are trying to make the best cutting tool for the job at hand. In the real world , I think we all know that in a court of law or the court of public opinion people can easily be swayed by the reporter holding a knife and slicing something on the 6:00 news. The press or a good lawyer can make any object appear as menacing as possible just by holding it up to the jury
and describing it as graphicly as possible.
They can and have made rocks and boards look like weapons of destuction.
I think that the whole problem or at least part of it will have to be solved through education. If we do not educate the buying public we leave them open to the sterotypes and the myths that have been perpetuated
over the years about our industry.
I have been struggling for the past five years to bring back knife throwing as a sport and hobby. I have had to educate the public thru demonstrations and magazine articles that we are not circus freaks or mercenaries. It is an uphill battle because the only way you see a knife thrower portrayed on tv or in the movies is as a bad guy trying to kill someone with his throwing knife.
When Mass first started tring to ban knives the first ones they went after were throwing knives, martial arts knives and related equipment. So lets all join AKTI and lets educate the buying public. (sorry for the rant).

Bobby Branton


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AKTI member #1000

President SCAK
President AKTA

www.scak.org/branton.htm
 
Yes..education, education, education..no restrictions...no exclusions.
NO REGISTRATIONS, NO SERIAL NUMBERS, No licenses..no NOTHING..
Educate, and lead by example.
Use AKTI to our advantage..
One doesn't set standartds by the botom of the ratings..one aims for the highest standard of ethics and let the slime fall out..That's what happens in a FREE society..
Any edged tool can be a self defense tool if so designed..no one need carry an exclusive fighting, combat, maiming knife to perform self defense..
Soldiers etc NEED combat knives..
the public doesn't NEED them..but they can have them..its allowed..freedom allows this..
again screw the repressive ideas and lets stick to what made the USA great,,education, freedom of expression and protecting all of our god given rights..
Repression does not make on respect the law or others, it breeds DISRESPECT of all laws: man's, God's, and fate's as well as those rulers themselves!
 
My mind is fairly reeling here, so I will try to keep this to a few salient points.

First, as the old Amish guy says in "Witness", "And who are these bad men. Can you look into their hearts and see their badness?" There are bad cops, bad soldiers and bad school teachers. That being said, I can still appreciate Spyderco's position concerning social responsibility and potential liability. Therefore, I would suggest:

Packaging the knife with the trainer and a video thereby removing the casual buyer from the equation.

My only problem with this is that it economically segregates the knife from some of the people who could most benefit from having it. But, I doubt that we are going to solve that problem. I do appreciate the fact that Spyderco is willing to wrestle with these issues.

And sorry for the semantics bantering, Sal, but I think it is an important component of the discussion.

Jack

[This message has been edited by donovan (edited 01-03-2000).]
 
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