Medieval European swords are not meant to be sharpen??

MacCanine.

I suppose since nearly all examples of Medieval swords extant repersent a decent level of mettalurgy, we have no reason to assume that in period all swords were as well made...
Except...a sword made out of poor metal is an exceptionally bad tool. If it will not hold an edge, or withstand trauma without bending or breaking, then you are better off using the metal in some tool where it is somewhat less critical. Spear, axe, even a club or mace of some sort.

Neither the HACA nor anyone else presumes to know "everything", but if one does not listen to the leading experts on the subject, whom do we propose to listen too?

Chaimail can only be damaged at the shoulders? Certainly a downard vertical blow is the most powerful, but good cutters have gone through it with even a horizontal blow.
 
Well, I heard from my contact in Germany. He is Holger Ratsdorf, an entrepreneur who runs the following company: http://www.hr-replikate.de/ which sells reproductions of museum items from prehistoric through Medieval times. I have purchased some of his smaller items, a fibula and a Roman era clasp knife and found them to be both exactingly made and very reasonable. I recommend his work highly if you do any re-enacting or have an interest in collecting ancient styles of jewelry, weaponry, etc. Be forewarned, however, that the prices on his weapons do run rather higher than the prices on his other items. Do take a look at his site.

BTW, "Damast" translates as "Damask", as in the cloth, like fine curtains or fine napkins, according to my German-English dictionary.

*********************************************
Guten Morgen Hugh,


The first pattern-welded blades we have in Europe are from the Celtic Era, around 500 BC. The "problem" is, that since that time, EVERY sword (or even every knife blade) was made of damast, up until the 17th/18th century. During that period a lot of different damast-techniques were used, every time had its own style - because technology went on. With the "older" technology, up to 17th century it was impossible to produce a modern steel as the oven was to small, and there was not enough heat for the necessary other chemical reactions. So you got only small pieces of soft iron (no steel!!). You would forge them together; this "mixture" is nearly a kind of damast, but a very soft kind, not useful for tools (I call blades "tools"). You can call every thing made of iron, composed of smaller pieces of iron, fire-welded together a “damast”. If you examine these objects, you find a typical structure of parallel lines. This says nothing about the quality. If we hear "damast" today, we think only about very fine quality. To get a good quality, we need hard steel. To get this, you had to put pieces of iron into a charcoal fire. During heating up to 800°C, carbon from the coal penetrates into the iron, 0,1mm in one hour, so it takes a long time and big piles of coal to get steel (very expensive!). And then you have to "mix" steel and iron to get a good blade-by fire welding. From around 500 BC up to around 200 AD blades had a "stripe" pattern of parallel lines; if this pattern is done with "bigger" stripes, you can see it still today, when a blade has been well preserved (in water, like the Rhine river). The finer the stripes, the better the quality! and now a strange thing happens, people with little knowledge about ancient technology see the broad stripes and think, "Wow, damast! It's fine quality!" and then they see a blade with fine stripes (but the problem is, that you can not see these fine stripes after a long time into the soil or even from the water because corroded too much!)so they see nothing and think, "Ordinary blade! Nothing special." But these blades were the best. But you can see this only with a special examination; even X-ray is useless for this.

In the beginning of the third century AD we now sometimes begin to see
pattern-welded damast, but the "stripe" damast is still the typical one, up until the beginning of the 6th century. Then we have nearly only the pattern-welded type; up to the 11th century. Then pattern-welded blades begin to disappear; the so-called “gegerbte” or “refined” steel was introduced. It's like striped damast, but after welding the block it was folded and doubled, fire welded again and doubled again and so on. This gives you a very very fine "mixture" which is nearly impossible to see with the naked eye. This quality was better than the pattern-welded damast. And with the beginning of "modern times" it vanished. Because then it was possible to get a liquid iron and steel directly out of the oven, which you can mix very easily- because it's liquid. With the “old" technique it was impossible to get liquid iron or steel. The first liquid iron we had around 1500 AD, it was only useable for oven plates and not for tools!

So this is a very short history of iron. The Vikings got most of their blades from France and Germany, because of the bad quality of their iron ore, which was not too good for making quality blades (Kiruna in northern Sweden with it's finer iron ore was not discovered at this time).

I have examined some Celtic and roman blades; they were ALL made of
damast. So this person should come to Europe, I can show him a pile of
damast blades (in its original form, the small blade of the rooster folding knife from the Roman era that I sold to you was a damast blade.)

Einen schönen Tag wünsche ich Dir,

Holger


------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller

[This message has been edited by FullerH (edited 03-30-2001).]
 
Hugh mentioned John Warry's book.
Good read.
It left me with the impression of cyclic reinvention, or re-adoption of weapons and tactics over the centuries, depending on the enemy and the latest trends in warfare.
Certain weapons and tactics came around more than once.

I have an impression of wide variance in quality and materials within any given culture and time, driven primarily by wealth.
Individuals and peoples with wealth could afford better weapons and armor.

The Philadelphia Museum of Art has an extraordinary collection of armor and weapons.
Some of the early steel looks as good as anything Timken-LaTrobe might produce, and the armor would probably cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not a million dollars, to reproduce today.
Clearly, the finest artisans of any given period had profound skills, but only the wealthiest of the wealthiest people could afford them.
Everyone else made do with what they could afford or scrounge.

For example, at the battle of Hastings in 1066, many of the English soldiers went into battle with sticks and rocks and still fought to good effect.
Right along side of them, though, the House Carls fought with state-of-the-art battle axes and double mail, and a House Carl on foot could and did bring down the best of the heavily armed and armored French knights on their giant war horses.

For most of the time during which the Romans maintained a professional infantry, the Legion had the finest weapons and armor, and the best and most intense training avalilable anywhere in the world.
Money well spent.
Emphasis again on money.

------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom
If one takes care of the means, the end will take care of itself.
 
Ken, I think that you about summed it up. When the Empire started to crimp on weaponry and training and instead used the money to try to buy the loyalty of the generals and such, that was when the trouble really started, during the Third Century CE.

------------------
Walk in the Light,
Hugh Fuller
 
Forgive me, but I feel the need to bend the topic a little:

I have always had difficulty imagining two Japanese swordsman banging their exquisite katana's edge to edge.

Furthermore, I have read recently, can't remember where, that Samurai set their primary katana aside for warfare and instead carried a purely utilitarian sword into battle; one which they could suffer to see reduced to molten iron and remanufactured after the battle.

In this scenario, one would carry his good sword for self-defense and symbolic purposes.
In its proper application, one would probably use this sword against unarmored flesh and cloth, and it would involve a quick draw and one slashing cut, with no defensive parry to jeopardize the edge.
This sword would have the mythically sharp, convex razor edge we associate with the katana.

If my speculation matches reality, could a katana and a Japanese battle sword have different edges in accordance with their differing applications?

Would this concept carry over to European swords; an unsharpened wedge for a battle sword which would meet the edge of numerous swords, and a sharpened edge for the self-defense sword?

------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom
If one takes care of the means, the end will take care of itself.
 
Mr. Cox...

In warfare, the sword was the sword. It was not elevated to any special position when warfare was common. Just another weapon. The Edo period and pax-Tokugawa saw the sword elevated as a status symbol and became more precious. It was not until the Edo period also that better polishes came more common, and the swords were appreciated more in their aesthetic pleasantries.

Prior to that, the goal was to fix up the shape and return the edge, while only the purely art-swords or royal swords were given more aesthetically-pleasing polishes (albeit still not as complete or beautiful as today's polishes, which include a refined shiage process that only goes back to the Meiji period).

During the Edo period, since there wasn't the whole mass-warfare thing, some swords were probably made sharper, just as some people who have dress knives for more limited use sometimes do the same. This does not mean older battlefield swords were dull. They would often be quite sharp actually...just not the refined "scary sharp" as some would call it.

Hope I've been articulate enough to explain a bit.

Shinryû.
 
Robert, I just can't see these finer swords coming edge to edge with any chance of repairing them.

In my mind, a duel or an assasination does not have the same expectancy of blade damage as does a battlefield.

As far as the knife to sword analogy, I have a highly polished hand made knife of substance.
It has a razor sharp convex edge.
It will serve more than adequately as a self-defense or surprise attack weapon.
I would not expose it to any planned abuse; in fact, I don't cut anything with it other than test paper.
I do not think of it as a costume knife, or an art knife, although it has great artistic value.
I think of it as a true, perhaps the truest weapon.

If I meant to go into battle, though, I have a comparatively inexpensive (not cheap) knife with an axe edge, made of unpolished A2 steel.
I think of it as indestructible, but if anything did happen to it, such as a knicked edge, I would feel good about filing as much of the knick out as I could and living with it.

A knick in the edge of my "important" knife would upset me to no end.

Perhaps I project my values on to others.
Making an analogy between my situation and someone else's may not have validity.

Still, edge to edge.
Do we have evidence of these masterpiece blades going into combat and working edge to edge?
What about repairs, other than shortening?

I don't mean to hound anyone on this subject.
It has long troubled me.

------------------
Luke 22:36, John 18:6-11, Freedom
If one takes care of the means, the end will take care of itself.
 
I think you're looking at all swords as treasures to their previous owners. This was not the case. A sword was one weapon among many when it came to warfare, and often it was not a primary weapon.

Edge-on-edge is a bad term. You avoid going edge-on-edge with pretty much any sword. Deflects were done with spine and side. But blades did get chipped from encountering other blades and from encountering armor and so forth. In polishing, the chips and battle-damage were removed at least mostly (a goal in polishing is to remove as little metal as necessary) and clean up the shape. Like I said, most swords were simply weapons, just like any other weapon. Naginata, nagamaki, yari, et cetera could all be considered too precious to waste in war, but they were used quite a bit. The shape, the design, the form, the construction all had a purpose intended for use...and they were used. People think that the Japanese always referred to the sword as the "soul of the samurai" but that's not accurate. That only came about when there were no wars being fought and the sword became more popular as a status symbol.

And like I said, most swords were not given high polishes...only the very few for royalty and culturally important ceremonial/art swords. Basically everything else was given enough of a polish so that it was sharp and smooth and could do its job in battle.

Shinryû.

Addendum: and to answer another part of your post, yes there are lots of marks and chips on even valuable swords from use. Many swords I have seen have had cuts almost always on the spine from other swords called kirikomi. They are interesting marks and give an older blade some neat "character" in appreciation, although they're considered flaws.

[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 04-05-2001).]
 
Ancient records suggest that a good many famous leaders and nobles did just as Ken suggests he would do. They had one sword that they wore as a status symbol (and in many cases this sword was perfectly suited for use but they didn't want to ding it up) and another sword/ax/spear that they actually did their fighting with.
 
I agree with you Triton about nobles and royalty, but I assumed Mr. Cox was referring to the average soldier, whom people sometimes have a warped view of, particularly when it comes to Japanese military.

Shinryû.
 
Wow, what a great thread. I hope that all you sword afficienados have read Michael Cricton's book Timeline. If not, you should.
 
Back
Top