Meditations on Rip Offs/Replica/Clones

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smcjoecohen@yahoo

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I was just thinking about Chinese clones of Striders and Hinderer's and ZT's, Spyderco, I'm sure the list is much longer. I've heard people ask why they don't just make there own designs? They comment on the fact that the knifemaker has skill so he should just make his own knives. But that isn't the really hard part. The hard part is coming up w/a design that will be popular and sell well. There are probably 100's or 1000's of knife makers in the USA. Out of all of those there are maybe a dozen that are popular enough to maintain and actual profitable biz. That's not including some small Artisans that sell high quality handmade but make low quantities... at a high price. My point is there is better odds of making money selling affordably priced, decent to excellent quality knives. Now I'm not commenting on whether this is good or bad, it's a highly subjective argument. The fact is that those replica makers are filling a niche, a small crevice of opportunity to exploit. I see a mirror image of this taking advantage of available resources in nature. Evolution of life on earth, organisms arise and decline taking advantage of any available resource for energy. Many loathsome creatures have come along to take advantage of a niche. So it's really a quite natural phenomenon. And like in nature what's bad for some is good for others. There are after all flies to clean up the dung, and eat the dead, and spread disease, repulsive but necessary. Those fakes make money so some guy can feed his family, so from his point of view they're great. The people that buy them (And there's a lot of them) are happy they got a good knife for cheap. I'm not sure it's hurting Strider knives. Hinderer's doing great. That doesn't mean I condone it, I just believe that these things are inevitable.
 
I wouldn't mind if these makers took the Sebenza/whatever design and used it as a spring board into their own design. Regardless of how good a knife is, it can be improved in some way. Maybe these makers want a Sebenza with a spear point blade, ambidextrous design, nice aggressive jimping, and a deep carry clip? All of those are enough change to make the knife original enough.

The community here has a different idea, though. If it is made in China and looks similar in some way to a popular knife it is a ripoff. American knives get a pass, though, unless they are a carbon copy. People also overlook the fact that a completely original design that isn't something Mantis would make is pretty hard, and other products *cough* cars *cough* steal designs or parts of designs ALL THE TIME, but nobody gives them the flak they deserve for it.

I love most of the community here, but some of the people here can be terrifyingly close-minded.
 
Moved from General Knife Discussion to FEEDBACK, since the discussion wasn't about the knives themselves.

Lets not get political here, and do not turn this into criticism of each other.
 
Again I'll say that I'm not promoting the fakes. My point is, like it or not if there is money to be made someone somewhere will do it. And the comparison to natural systems is just something that occurred to me, this stuff happens. In nature, many living creatures make their living off of the scraps. If there's a consistent source of energy (Money), some organism (Person) will try to use it, and they will even mutate and change biology to be able to use it. It is now scientific fact that if there's an source of energy present, no matter the form, there's a life form present using that energy to live. Life has been found in the sulfuric acid ponds at Yellowstone, it's been found at volcanic vents at the bottom of the ocean where temperatures are close to boiling and there is never sunlight. 15 years ago it was considered impossible for anything to thrive in those environments. So if there is any energy, even the most toxic chemical energy, something pops up to use it. So as long as there's people that really want a Rolex, or a Strider, Hinderer, Aimpoint, Eotech, whatever, they'll be someone out there that's going to try to fill that need. This also reminds me of the pathetically ineffectual and titanically wasteful war on drugs. History has proven that prohibition has never worked. The thing that prohibition does really well is make petty thugs become powerful billionaires. When liquor was made illegal it created an organized crime empire that still terrorizes regular folks today. These Mexican cartels basically run the country, they have paramilitary that's better than the national army. The US. Gov't spends billions to stop a very small % of the drugs from entering the market. More is spent locking up mostly very poor, desperate couriers, users and small time dealers. I'm not going off on a tangent here I'm just using another example to emphasize that if there's something people want, they'll get it.
 
smcjoecohen@yahoo said:
Again I'll say that I'm not promoting the fakes. My point is, like it or not if there is money to be made someone somewhere will do it. And the comparison to natural systems is just something that occurred to me, this stuff happens. In nature, many living creatures make their living off of the scraps. If there's a consistent source of energy (Money), some organism (Person) will try to use it, and they will even mutate and change biology to be able to use it. It is now scientific fact that if there's an source of energy present, no matter the form, there's a life form present using that energy to live. Life has been found in the sulfuric acid ponds at Yellowstone, it's been found at volcanic vents at the bottom of the ocean where temperatures are close to boiling and there is never sunlight. 15 years ago it was considered impossible for anything to thrive in those environments. So if there is any energy, even the most toxic chemical energy, something pops up to use it. So as long as there's people that really want a Rolex, or a Strider, Hinderer, Aimpoint, Eotech, whatever, they'll be someone out there that's going to try to fill that need.


This also reminds me of the pathetically ineffectual and titanically wasteful war on drugs. History has proven that prohibition has never worked. The thing that prohibition does really well is make petty thugs become powerful billionaires. When liquor was made illegal it created an organized crime empire that still terrorizes regular folks today. These Mexican cartels basically run the country, they have paramilitary that's better than the national army. The US. Gov't spends billions to stop a very small % of the drugs from entering the market. More is spent locking up mostly very poor, desperate couriers, users and small time dealers. I'm not going off on a tangent here I'm just using another example to emphasize that if there's something people want, they'll get it.
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You've went from clones/fakes to the war on drugs. Whats next ???

Yes, they will make clones, but we don't have to support them. Supporting them is the same as theft in my book. This topic has been beaten to death here, so thats about all I have to say about it.
 
Ken44 said:
Yes, they will make clones, but we don't have to support them.
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Well and succinctly said.

And in connection with this we do our level best to prevent this site from being used to promote piracy and knockoffs.

From our rules and guidelines:

Fakes/Homages:
As fakes and homage items are a legal gray area and obviously hurt the hobby, no fake or homage items may be sold on the Exchange. Members may not knowingly sell unlicensed knockoffs or counterfeit versions of knives (or any other goods) based upon the designs of their legitimate owner, manufacturer or custom maker. Additionally, members may not sell any knife or item known or suspected to be other than as described in terms of its lineage and authenticity.
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When there are knives like Opinels, Svords, Higonokami, Kershaw Half-ton/Compound/Asset/Shuffle, Spyderco Bug Series, I don't see why any self-respecting knife user would opt to go for a rip-off or a copy.
 
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Invective said:
When there are knives like Opinels, Svords, Higonokami, Kershaw Half-ton/Compound/Asset/Shuffle, Spyderco Bug Series, I don't see why any self-respecting knife user would opt to go for a Chinese copy.
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Copies and counterfeits can be sourced from any country...even here in the good ol' USA. Let's leave the country of origin and any associated commentary out of this discussion.
 
What's the definition of a "homage."
I consider many custom Bowie's to be a homage to American legend & history. Many custom makers make FB hunting knives in the "Loveless style." Cold Steel has a version, I believe.
Are these not legitimate homages?
I consider such items very different to fakes & rip-offs, which I don't support.
 
mtangent said:
What's the definition of a "homage."
I consider many custom Bowie's to be a homage to American legend & history. Many custom makers make FB hunting knives in the "Loveless style." Cold Steel has a version, I believe.
Are these not legitimate homages?
I consider such items very different to fakes & rip-offs, which I don't support.
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In the case of custom Bowie knives there's little issue as there is widespread disagreement on what is and what is not a Bowie knife, let alone which was the original style.

That said, since I can't take credit for the inclusion of the term "homage" in the rules, I won't try to define it...however, in the arena of knockoffs and fakes, I often rely on the wisdom of the late Potter Stewart, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court:

"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description...and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it..."
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I have no problem with buying clones.
A lot of brands do it, everybody copies everybody and not just with knives and not just with appearance. Samsung sues Apple, Apple sues Samsung etc.

What if two knives (or other product) are exactly the same except one feature? What about two, or three, when is it dishonest and when not? I can't be bothered by that since most companies themselves don't either.
Same goes for locks, thumb studs and other stuff, one company thought of it first and the rest copied it.

I don't buy fakes because they are made and sold to deceive the customer. With fakes it is very clear something dishonest is going on. With clones it is not since it seems to be common practice.
 
Ken44 said:
You've went from clones/fakes to the war on drugs. Whats next ???

Yes, they will make clones, but we don't have to support them. Supporting them is the same as theft in my book. This topic has been beaten to death here, so thats about all I have to say about it.
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Just using it as an example, it is relevant to the discussion. If there's a market for something nothing will stop people from selling it.
 
smcjoecohen@yahoo said:
JIf there's a market for something nothing will stop people from selling it.
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Or at least trying to. Success varies. Legal and enforcement issues aside, Ken nailed it by stating that folks have a choice. Hopefully they will exercise that choice wisely and do the right thing.
 
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