Mentioning Non-Supporting Dealers When Appropriate

[Chronovore]

Alright. I just got a post taken down because I mentioned a non-supporting dealer.

The thread was about the new Hogue RSK in MagnaCut and a different scale material. This knife is a dealer exclusive. That means it is primarily on sale from that dealer. It also means that the product page, specs, and pictures are on that dealer's website. The knife exists because of that dealer. The dealer's identity is a natural part of the discussion.

I had been under the impression that we were not supposed to link to non-supporting dealers. Some people think we can't even mention a non-supporting dealer's name. This led to people in the thread dancing around the name, giving hints, mentioning the initials of the non-supporting dealer, and giving tips for finding the dealer name via google search. This seemed totally absurd to me. I said as much and I mentioned the dealer's name explicitly, without linking to them.

I was referred to the rules. Well, this seems to be the relevant section. I'd been mistaken. This rule does not explicitly prohibit people from mentioning a non-supporting dealer. It also does not specifically prohibit non-dealer users from linking to product pages among non-supporting dealers.

Site Rules

The big list of how you should act during your time on BladeForums.com

www.bladeforums.com

• No Deal Spotting
  "BladeForums.com stays open due to paid subscriptions from various member groups, including Dealers who help sponsor this site. A dealer who does not have a paid subscription is not allowed to advertise in any way, shape, or form. In the past, dealers have used 'shill' accounts to promote themselves & their products; as a result we've limited all dealer advertising to The Exchange or registered Dealers with active paid subscriptions."

Now I do see a prohibition on linking--not mentioning but linking--on the help page regarding warnings and infractions.

Warnings & Infractions

An explanation of what may happen when you break the rules

www.bladeforums.com

"BladeForums.com stays open thanks to the users who have paid subscriptions, including the dealers who pay to advertise here. If a site doesn't advertise here, you are not allowed to link to items they have for sale."

Arguing about what the rules should be is one thing. Actually knowing what they are is another. Could we get some permanent clarification or something here?

 

[rycen]

Mentioning a name or linking to a site are virtually the same to me. One just saves a step. Either way you are directing business to a specific site.

 

[willc]

This rule is a bit ridiculous. We are on a knife forum and we cannot talk about where to purchase knives unless the dealer pony’s up some cash?

 

[benchwarmer380]

This rule is a bit ridiculous. We are on a knife forum and we cannot talk about where to purchase knives unless the dealer pony’s up some cash?

Not really.

Paid memberships and ads keep this place running.

Without paid memberships, more ads would need to be purchased to cover cost and would make for a lesser overall user experience.

A dealer is in the business, and on these forums, to make money. The dealer membership is far and away the most expensive membership on the forum. (Pirate not included.)


It is actually very reasonable to disallow advertising for dealers that choose not to make the investment of joining the forum. If one were allowed to drive traffic to a non participating dealer, then people would and there would be much less (and perhaps no) incentive for a dealer to jump on board.

 

[Danke42]

It's fine to talk about non-supporting dealers in the GBU.

That's not open season for deal spotting but if you happen to look in there you'll see many posts about dealers that are not on the list.

The best post I ever saw about the rules here was "There is a line; figure out where it is"

 

[Chronovore]

Mentioning a name or linking to a site are virtually the same to me. One just saves a step. Either way you are directing business to a specific site.

I understand the purpose. We both want to thank and offer an advantage to our supporting dealers. I don't have a problem with that.

Whatever people decide to do after seeing a dealer's name mentioned is something I can't control. Does anyone think it isn't absurd to then have people dancing around this, giving hints, search tips, a dealer's initials, specifying Amazon as "the river", etc?!? While I don't know whether or how much business I'd be directing towards a dealer by just saying their name, is it any different than what people would get from the silly hints? Is it really different than if they just searched for it themselves? Taking this approach, the fact that we are talking about a dealer exclusive from a non-supporting dealer in the first place would be directing business to that dealer.

Whatever is right, I feel like this needs to be explicit in the posted rules. I had a post taken down for something that isn't explicit in the rules and required a judgement call. If it is important enough to delete posts, warn, or give out points over; I think it should be both explicit and not tucked away separately from the main rules.

 

[willc]

Not really.

Paid memberships and ads keep this place running.

Without paid memberships, more ads would need to be purchased to cover cost and would make for a lesser overall user experience.

A dealer is in the business, and on these forums, to make money. The dealer membership is far and away the most expensive membership on the forum. (Pirate not included.)


It is actually very reasonable to disallow advertising for dealers that choose not to make the investment of joining the forum. If one were allowed to drive traffic to a non participating dealer, then people would and there would be much less (and perhaps no) incentive for a dealer to jump on board.

There is great incentive for dealers to have paid membership on BF even if we allowed to speak the name of other dealers.
Even with this rule we need to watch out for the trolls and shills that will sometimes use BF as there free advertising but not being able to mention a dealers name in passing is a disservice to all members and the hobby in general.

 

[hhmoore]

It's sort of dependent on the circumstances...
To stick with the rule, there shouldn't be discussions about dealer exclusives by nonsupporting vendors - no anticipatory pictures, descriptions/specifications, pricing, expected release date, etc. Acknowledging that simple statement, there would then be no dancing around and hinting at where to get them because the topic doesn't exist.
Of course, stuff happens when pictures are posted; and people ask questions...then people set about the foolishness instead of simply acknowledging It's a dealer exclusive by a nonsupporting vendor.

 

[Spark]

The reason this rule came into being is because a specific dealer decided they didn't want to pay to advertise on here and both sent shills and registered under fake names to promote their products. If you don't want to pay for a dealer membership, why the hell should I let you get free advertising?

Dealer memberships are dirt cheap compared to print ads and such and you can advertise your special runs for an entire year at a time. If the dealer can't afford <$30 a month, they can cope. If they can afford to spend tens of thousands on runs of knives with super steels, they can absolutely afford advertising.

 

[Chronovore]

The reason this rule came into being is because a specific dealer decided they didn't want to pay to advertise on here and both sent shills and registered under fake names to promote their products. If you don't want to pay for a dealer membership, why the hell should I let you get free advertising?

Dealer memberships are dirt cheap compared to print ads and such and you can advertise your special runs for an entire year at a time. If the dealer can't afford <$30 a month, they can cope. If they can afford to spend tens of thousands on runs of knives with super steels, they can absolutely afford advertising.

That sounds like a good deal. It seems to work too. For instance, I tend to check the dealer advertisement section of the exchange. This has absolutely led me to buying stuff from Knife Center and New River Knife Works.

The fact that any dealer would do shady stuff like the above is disappointing.

I'm just coming at this as a guy who wants to talk about knives. I agree with the goals here. I think I adequately highlighted some of the challenges and unintended consequences posed by both the current rules and their lack of clarity. For instance, how important is it that non-supporting dealers are never even mentioned, in any context? Can we ever discuss knives that are (or were) dealer exclusives at non-supporting dealers? Does the frequent dancing around on this, giving hints, etc.; constitute a violation of the rules?

 

[Spark]

We're not going to bend over backwards policing content, but if people have to dance around that's on them. Dealer exclusives aren't that frequent and if it's in such high demand, maybe suggest to the dealer that they should take advantage of the incredible bargain the forums represent.