Important Info! Metallurgical Discussion and Heat Treatment Sticky - find Good HT info here

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

To comment on any thread linked in this sticky, just open the link and you will be on that thread.

Larrin, Devin Thomas' son, is a PhD metallurgist who freely gives his knowledge here. We greatly appreciate his deep theoretical info. It make my head hurt sometimes.
His threads are linked below:

All about austenitizing and Larrin's discussion website - https://knifesteelnerds.com/

Steel Flex and HT:

Why Doesn't Heat Treating Affect Steel Flex?

In my latest metallurgy-related article I wrote about steel flexing and bending, where I answer such questions as: 1) Why doesn't a softer steel flex more than a harder one? 2) At what point does steel permanently bend rather than flex? 3) Why is it that a fillet knife can flex to such extreme...

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Other readily needed info -
The Bladeforums Custom Search Engine is here:
https://cse.google.com/cse/publicurl?cx=012217165931761871935:iqyc7cbzhci
It will find all sorts of threads and info.

First, some basic HT info:

To learn about basic Metallurgy, Metallurgical and Heat Treatment terms, I highly recommend Larin's' book.

Metallurgy resources and books

Links to other metallurgy and knife websites:
Steel University Online

https://steeluniversity.org/

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Threads on General Heat Treatment Advice

Kevin Cashen - Working with Three Steels:

Working the three steel types.

I have taken the liberty of compiling the two stickies (hypereutectoid and eutectoid) together within a cleaned up version that only includes the on topic posts, minus the kind positive one liners as well as other posts. I have also added the final chapter that was always missing on...

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Kevin Cashen on Heat Treatment:

What comes first? Annealing or Heat treating.

Or are those the same exact thing. Sorry, I'm trying to get into knife making. Also what type of oil do you guys use when heat treating.

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Heat Treatment and Metallurgy - Post #4, #6, #7:

Sticky Threads - All The Good Info You Want In One Place

The stickies have all been condensed into this new super-sticky. This will free up the top of the forum, but make all the good info just a click or two away. Each will have its own segment, and all the info is still there. Any additional info that you folks think should be added to the...

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Tempering in oil?

I have recently been wondering if a already quenched blade of either 1080/1094 can be tempered in pre heated 400 degree oil? Would this be the same as an oven quench for 2 hours at the same temperature? And if so what type of oil would be the best to do this tempering in. Thank you

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Information on Quench Procedures and Cooling Curve
(post #9)

Compensating for heat loss on the way to the quench

Do you guys overshoot the necessary temperature in your oven to account for heat loss on the way to the quench? Especially for thin blades I can imagine it losing quite a number of degrees before actually hitting the oil.

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[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Forge HT and Back Yard HT

Forge HT and Thremal Cycling:

Thermal cycling with a forge?

So it came up in a different thread that Aldos 1084 requires thermal cycling before the final HT quench. I was previously under the belief that 1084 was recommended for backyard heat treatment because soak times were not required. Now I'm a bit confused. I do stock removal. I use a homemade 2...

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Normalizing in a Forge:

Normalizing carbon steel in a forge

Hey guys, there has been a lot of talk about HT lately, a lot of it focusing on the fact that Aldos steel is spherioid annealed and must be normalized before quenching. The advice has been 3 cycles with soaks of roughly 20 minutes. I don't have a HTing oven, and can't hold a specific...

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[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

1084, 1095, W2, 52100 HT threads

1084 info:

Heat treating and temering 1084

Hey guys, I have recently ordered some 1084 from Aldo and I'm waiting for it to arive. I have been researching all that I need for making my first (known metal) knife. What I have not been able to find is how to heat treat and temper the metal. What I have found is that I am to quench...

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52100 HT:

52100 heat treat question-thermal cycling

I use a jeweler's burnout oven to heat treat since I use mainly 10xx steels when I'm doing it myself. Well, I have a bar of 52100 and I was wondering if it would be pointless to try to HT myself because I don't think my oven will get much over 1550F. My understanding is that 52100 needs to get...

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W2 tempering:

Tempering time from quench for W2

I recently read that W2 should cool to room temp prior to tempering because it needs a little more time to harden fully. Anybody have more info on this?

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http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...2100-(Aldo-s)-alternate-heat-treat-Epic-Fail-

Old Discussion on W2 and Similar HT:

W2 Heat Treating HELP?

Can I get some kindly advice on hardening and tempering W2 Steel? The info I have says to heat to about 1470 degrees, then quench in water or brine. BUT.....is there a specific or best temperature for the water or brine? I have a 36 inch bar of cold rolled W2, 1"X1/8. The first knife I've made...

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Basic 1095 HT - Foolproof:
Heat evenly to 1475F for 10 minutes then immediately quench in fast oil (fast enough to cool the steel through the 1200F-1000F in less than .5 seconds). Cool to room temperature before tempering. This should get you a full 65HRC hardness with no problem, tempering should be done without delay. Tempering should be for 2 hours , twice, at the temperature to reach the desired final hardness. 400F to 450F is a good range for knife blades.

1095 HT and Micro-chipping info

heat treating 1095 advice

I'm using 1095 steel, and heat treating with a forge. I have been having some microscopic chipping on the edge (cant see it with the naked eye but I can see it under a magnifying glass) on the edge with the 1095 and I am trying to resolve this issue. Should I purchase and try a kiln? Or should I...

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[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Triple Quench and Triple Normalization threads - Spheroidite

Triple Quench Discussion:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/triple-quench-secrets-to-be-revealed-or-not.268912/


Devin Thomas on Fine Spheroidite vs Coarse Spheroidite:
https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/52100-examination.1652720/

Chuck - Alpha Knife Suply - Spheroidite

Spheroidize Annealed Steels

I've received requests to clarify the annealed condition of the steels we stock. We carry the following spheroidize annealed steels: 1080+ (80CRV2) 52100 8670 A2 D2 (Thinner Sizes) M2 AEB-L These steels are very soft and easy to work. All the alloys listed above do...

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[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Aldo's Steel HT and Spheroidized Steel threads ( New Jersey Steel baron)

The steel from Aldo Bruno ( New Jersey Steel baron) and some other suppliers comes fully spheroidized. This means the carbon is balled up in balls and rods of carbides. This makes it easier to cut, drill, and file ... but has to be reversed in HT to get the steel fully hard. The below threads are on that topic.

The best information is in Dr. Larrin Thomas' book - Knife Engineering, or on his knifesteelnerds.com website.

This is a short description of how to break down spheroidized steel by Willie 71:
Normalizing is heating above ac3, around 1550f for many of the steels we use. Higher temps break up the course spheroid quicker, so many use 1650f, but this results in grain growth. After breaking up the spheroids, we thermal cycle using 1550f, 1450f, and even 1400f. Soak 10min at each temp, and cool to black, about 900f. The steel will become magnetic again when cool enough. Each cycle below ac3 results in new grains forming within the boundaries of the old grains, creating smaller and smaller grain size. These cycles result in an even distribution of alloys, carbides, and a small, even grain size. The steel is in ideal condition to heat treat now.
This is overly simplified, but gives you a basic overview of the processes and why they are done.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Forges and Ovens - threads on Building Them and related discussions about Use and Problems

PID Controlled Forge:

PID Controlled Forge/Heat Treat oven plans & WIP

So after going through the stickys a couple weeks ago and finding all of the amazing plans for different PID controlled forges, tempering ovens, salt pot etc, I've switched gears fully to creating a really high-functioning PID controlled forge & heat treating oven. First off, thanks to other...

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Uneven Heat Issues:

Evenheat too hot in the back?

Today I used my new kiln (Evenheat KH418 120 volt) for quenching.... and I'm not happy with the results. I'm noticing a huge difference in temperature over the length of the knives coming out of the oven (this is both visible to the naked eye in the dark, but was also apparent in the change in...

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Table/Tunnel Forge and Ribbon Burner:

Table Forge with Ribbon Burner

I've had a project to build a table forge for some time. All the parts have been lying around but never got in the grove to make it until I was motivated by seeing a ribbon burner at Travis Wuertz hammer-in last month. Well this forge has far exceeded my expectations. I'm running it with 1/4 PSI...

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2 Brick Forge:

Virtual BBQ - 2 Brick Forge WIP

I've about worn out my old cheap grinder, so I've been holding off on working on blades until I get my new grinder finished. However, I wanted to participate in the virtual BBQ and offered to start a couple forge WIPs. First, let's start with the simple 2 brick forge of a non-traditional...

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Chimney on a Forge?:

Chimney on a forge?

Anybody have any experience putting a chimney on a forge? I just built a 27 inch forge, because of it's size, it has 4 burners. It is throwing a two foot flame out of the door. Just wondering if I could put a chimney on it to redirect the flame up and out. I remember Robb Gunter designed...

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Blown Burners:

help with forced air burner blowers

Hey guys looking for a lil help i am making a new forge and i am thinking about getting 2 forced air burners from hightemptools.com ok so no problem there but now i need 2 blowers for the burners and i have been having a real hard time finding them at a decent price that will work good a few...

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Forced Air Burner Forge Build

I'm starting this tread to document my forced air forge build. Maybe someone can learn something from my build and maybe yall can tell me if I'm screwing something up!! Thanks for any insight along the way. Tonight I test fired the burner. I still need to get a gauge and a needle valve...

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Venturi Burner Build:

How To - Building a Venturi Burner for $21

So last year I built a blown forge (thanks for all the help from the community with this build!). The process was documented in this thread: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/forced-air-burner-forge-build.1584591/ I've been having issues over the last few months when heat treating. The blown...

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[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Specialty Heat Treatments and Steels that Require special Treatment Threads

Kevin Cashen on L-6:

All about L6

I've been curious about the different L6's (true L6 as opposed to Admiral's "Not-L6") for quite a while and have never gotten an answer I understood... one more try. Kevin Cashen wants L6 with Mo and Tim Zowada wants L6 without Mo. What I don't understand are the reasons for the preferences...

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D2:

D2 heat treat ?

I'm conflicted about the heat treat time for d2. Most of the info I found says to heat to 1850f for 20-30 minutes. The spec sheets say it haves to soak a minimum of 45-60 minutes even when under 1". I would think that would enlarge the grain.

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Hitach Steels Info -- post #14:

Sticky Threads - All The Good Info You Want In One Place

The stickies have all been condensed into this new super-sticky. This will free up the top of the forum, but make all the good info just a click or two away. Each will have its own segment, and all the info is still there. Any additional info that you folks think should be added to the...

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Hitachi Steel HT:

Hitachi Steel Heat Treatment

Since Hitachi White and Blue steel are available from a couple of different online vendors, Dictum and Workshopheaven, I thought about starting a thread that talked about these steels, particularly the heat treat requirements they need. Super Blue isn't available to us yet, AFAIK. Wish it was...

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Hitachi Steels

laminated Hitachi White and Blue Steel Heat Treat Process

To help with the recent HT sticky, Im offering what I have learned and use myself relative to laminated Hitachi steel. I'll outline and detail the process as taught to me over about 9 days with Murray Carter over 2 separate visits. Carters book on bladesmithing is also a reference...

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O-1:

Heat treating 01 tool steel..... help

Would like to get some good info on heat treating 01 tool steel. Have been researching it on the web and the info varies greatly. Just doing small blades, mostly 1/8 inch. Do I bring it up to 1500 for 10 min? Just past the point when it loses it magnetic. What type of oil would be best olive...

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[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Miscellaneous Heat Treatment Discussions

Heat Treatment and Metallurgy - Post #4, #6, #7:

Sticky Threads - All The Good Info You Want In One Place

The stickies have all been condensed into this new super-sticky. This will free up the top of the forum, but make all the good info just a click or two away. Each will have its own segment, and all the info is still there. Any additional info that you folks think should be added to the...

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Multiple Knife Quenching in Oil:

Heat Treating Multiple Blades at once??

I have always used an outside source for my heat treating. For convenience and other reasons I have finally purchased my own HT Oven. My question is on doing multiple blades at once. When quenching a blade it will obviously raise the temp of the oil. The second will raise it more and so on. SO...

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[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Hamon Threads and discussions

刃文
文 = pattern 刃 =blade edge

Hamon - Ha - blade edge, mon - line/mark/wave
pattern
ha-mon - the wavy line along the edge. In the old form, the word meant waves along the shore.

Pronounced hah - moan

Good discussion on making and polishing a hamon.
http://www.bladeforums.com/threads/the-hamon-thread.1459372/

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

HT program for annealing D2 with a Rampmaster Cpntrol

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/evenheat-rampmaster-annealing-d2.1524090/