Metallurgy questions on triple quench

R

Riced

Joined
Aug 19, 2003
Messages
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Can someone explain (or reference a link)the scientific need or reasoning for quenching more than once. I am new to bladesmithing and have been reading a great deal on metallurgy relating to bladesmithing. It seems there are many opinions on the "right" way to heat treat. It would help to formulate an opinion if I understood the science behind multiple quenches. I have read some say multiple quenches transforms retained austenite into martensite using multiple quenches. Is that true and why???
I am just trying to learn from others that know (versus opinion) to establish my own protocol. Obviously testing and performance by each bladesmith is important, however, some scientific basis would be nice.
Any help would be appreciated---Thanks!!!
 
It was a hot topic at Bowie's hammer-in, too. Wiggins, Landrum, and Buxton discussed this at length. Almost starting to make sense. Good luck.

I keep my yap shut this time, too.... :) There was doo on my shoo last time when I tasted my foot.
 
Riced, welcome, that referenced thread goes on for an incredible 21 pages .It will take you as long to read it as it will to triple normalize,triplequench, triple temper, and triple cryo ! LOLLOLLOL
 
After reading the previous 21 pages of info on this previous subject......I offer my deepest apologies. I'm still not sure what the answer is but that's alright. Thanks for all the testing, analysis, and entertainment.:)
 
I really think the best answer to the triple quench is to test test test. The same methods, done in different shops, can often result in different results. There are also different ways to do multiple quenches. And more importantly, different people are looking for different results. I don't know of anyone who is currently doing multiple quenches that is not still looking for a better way. They are still testing, and will continue to do so. Other people would be more qualified to give more scientific answers than me. As a knifemaker, I can just do what works best for me with consistent results. And the only way to determine this....test test test
Bill
 
Hi My name is Daqo'tah..

Im as guilty as anyone is for always pushing this question at people...I really am searching for ways to make my knives always a little better.

Here is what I see so far to be going on...

Ed Fowler says that if I were to do the 3 Heat treatments and quenches on a 52100 blade, that it ends up to be a better cutting edge than if I had just done one Heat-treatment quench.

and on the other side or this question, we got guys who perhaps they dont make as many knives as Ed Fowler, still they seem to know tons of information about how steel acts when heat-treated and they keep telling me that One heat-treatment is always going to be the same as 3 heat-treatments (If I do them correctly and the same way)


At first I seemed to be being forced to pick what system I could "believe" in, and heat-treat my blades in line with that system,,,3 times or 1 time?...

Well,,,the truth is,,,I just dont know what what to "believe"...if Ed Folwer says he gets a better edge after H-T 3 times I trust that he does,

If other guys with lots of school-learning say they have no understanding how Ed can end up with better blades that way,,,I trust that as well.

perhaps in some way,,,,somehow,,,both sides are correct?...I dont know...

What would I like to see to help me come to a better understanding of this topic and find an answer I could "believe" in?

2 things.

...1st I would love to see this topic handled in an up-comming issue of BLADE mag....have a some steel tested in a way to answer some real questions...(Take ONE peice of steel before any heat-treatments and break a little part off it off and test it whatever way needed,,,then do one Heat-treatment and break off a bit more of the same blade and test it to find what changed,,,then Heat-treat again/break/test,,,then do the 3rd Heat treatment/break/and test.If a blade is better after the 3rd HT then how is it better?...is it easyer to sharpen?, stronger?. did the grain of the steel change between the 1st and 3rd heattreatment?..I would love to learn whats going on..

The 2nd thing I would love to see is for the guys that say that the triple-quench is pointless to look at the question from a different point of view,,,,instead of trying to prove it wont help,,,try to find a new way to do a heat-treatment that will work better than what we are doing now!


But for now,,,,I still use 2 or 3 heat treatments for each of my blades,,,,why?...well, the truth is,,,useing my new O/A torch is fun,thats why...
 
There is one thing for sure..... unless done right, three quenches can make as inferior a blade as one bad quench. It's not necessarily in how many times, it's the whole process.
 
But what if it is done right?

What if I did a 1 Heat-treatment on my next blade just the way I am told to by guys who know all the science?

Then take that very same blade and just do 2 more heat-treatments...will anything change?

Will I find any difference?...was something so changed between the 1st and 3rd heat treatment that it makes it worth the time to do 2 more quenchings?

Thats what I want to learn...if it's done right once and then if it's done right 2 more times,,,what happens?
 
You have no option but to do it yourself and test it. Only you can validate your methods.
 
Fitzo...


But I think thats also the problem...that if I am alone, testing my own ways of doing things, then because I am alone, I can "think" I have come up with a system that "works" for me , that is actually wrong.

Personal point of view makes a poor way to test anything if you are actually seeking real truth and understandings...

If I have nothing else to guide my future knife making (except for my own results), then I can confuse myself too easly I believe.

But if I have the results of true "BLIND" tests results,(Test results where the tester has no idea what he is testing, and therefor no interest in the results) then I have a real base to start my bladesmithing from.

Right now I Heat-treat my blades 2 or 3 times each. I do this based on what I have read of some of the best made blades in the world. But as I do this, I also know that there are some voices that say a 3-time heat-treatment is not needed.

And as I look down the road, I dont know if this situation will likely change in the near future.
 
Hey Riced, glad to have ya. Ask anything you want, no reason to apologise. Some of us were just having some fun. Your question was a good one and after reading the 21 pages on that topic you can probably appreciate some of the replies. You just got lucky on your first question out -- that shows promise. Keep 'em coming.
 
You have to come up with your own conclusions on how far you want to test and take your techniques. I can tell you how I do things in my shop but that doesn't mean its the best or only way, or that it produces the absolute best product. But from phyical tests, like cutting, chopping, bending and more, I get results that prove to me that I am producing a very good product, in regards to other products I've used. I keep building test knives from time to time and do more experimenting to try and improve my product. I don't think a true knifemaker is ever totally satisfied with his finished product to the point that it couldn't stand improvements somewhere, be it fit and finish, grinds, heat treat, etc.
With the questions you have, only you to, can actually answer the benefits from your techniques. example being, I can take a steel, quench it 1 time with my techiques, also take the same steel and quench it 3 times with my techniques, send these off to have them analyzed for grain size and find significant changes from 1 to the other. You may do the same heat treat and see little change. This could be do because of a more controlled environment or possibly because of a better understanding of knowledge and equipment. There's other varibles that come into play here too, quenchant, quenchant temp, normalizing cycles, time and temp when heating to critical, it goes on and on. You need to work up a CONSISTANT technique that works in your shop and gives you the results you are pleased with, not satisfied with, and then keep trying to improve it. Compare what you do with others techniques and try to incorperate bits and pieces into yours, but don't take for granted that just because 1 knifemaker or however says they get good results one way that, thats the best or only way. Believe me thats just a starting place and its up to you to figure out whats the best for your shop. Keep really good notes, and follow them. Its been stated above by several makers, test, test, test.

Bill
 
Thank you, Mr B. :) There it is in a nutshell, DaQotah! That's one of the little Catch 22's of knifemaking... you have to test and improve your own product, because only you use the specific sets of conditions you will employ.

Well put, Bill!
 
Fitzo....but thats also the problem as well...lets say there is a knife maker named "Joe", and he does a heat-treatment one time on his blade...and tests it as much and in as many ways as we can test such things..

Then he does the same heat-treatment 2 more times...will anything change?

Did Joe improve his blade?

If Joe really did make a better blade, then whatever Joe did should be able to be copied by anyone in the world to get the same results...If Joe did, then I can too...If Ed can change his blades after the 3rd heat-treatment and make them better, than DaQo'tah can too...

Thats the real question,,,is there any change for the better by doing 3 more heat treatments?...thats all I want to see proof of..

But darn-it , much of the "proof" for both sides of this question is just a "story" about this or that knife,,But I seek something more.. I seek to know why a steel like 52100 or 5160 can change for the better after 2 more heat-treatments....?..or is the end blade after the 3rd heat treatment the very same blade I had after the first.

Another thing we need to understand is the many things that go into a heat-treatment,,,(Thickness of the steel, temp of the oil, the type of quenching oil, the time the blade is held in the oil,,etc)-,

I know all this stuff can effect the blade,,,(And it does mess up a test result Im sure too),,

But My question is,,,"What if it's done correctly?" What if I am able to copy the work of others in the very same, correct way?

What if I did a 1 quench heat-treatment the correct way?
What if I then tested the blade to know her secrets, then did 2 more correctly done heat treatments. Would 3 correctly done quenches change the blade to be better that that same blade was when it was quenched the first time?

..The supporters of the 3 quenched blade seem to believe that each new heat-treatment is like walking up stairs, each step is a step up from the one before, each step builds on the step that came before it...

the supporters of the 1 quenched blade seem to be saying that you cant really change the blade like that...That you cant really "Build up" heat-treatments like you are climbing stairs..that the 2nd and 3rd heat-treatment are just re-doing the first and getting the very same results as you got after the first one...


Im still not sure what is what...

Im still seeking information that is backed up with more that just a 'story",,there has got to be more somehow,,,but what?, i dont have any idea yet....
 
DaQo'tah -

Every Warrior must walk his own path to the Light. It is never the same twice. None may walk for him, lest he not be strong. The Path is rocky, and strewn with obstacles. Only through trial may he succeed. The p'taak will fall away, and their Path shall wither before them.

That is all I can say..... good luck.
 
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