Micarta Scale Repair Options?

[Bill DeShivs]

My point is: you can't "epoxy it down." All you can do is fill the space with epoxy.

 

[bodog]

My point is: you can't "epoxy it down." All you can do is fill the space with epoxy.

I'm pretty sure I have one or two full tang knives that aren't pinned, just shaped slab scales held on with something. It's been slightly beaten on, washed, used to cut food, tape, boxes, etc. Hell, I did a little batoning with it too. The scales have stayed on just fine. And I'm pretty sure I've seen several hidden tang knives that didn't have pins. Everyday I carry and beat the snot out of a knife I rehandled myself. It is held together with nothing but 2 carbon fiber pins and the epoxy I recommended earlier. As far as I know you can't peen carbon fiber. I know I didn't

Out of curiosity, what would be holding the handles on if not some kind of adhesive, like epoxy, for example? With the knife I mentioned with carbon fiber pins, the pins just protect the scales from shearing forces. If it's not epoxy holding the scales down, what would it be? I know for a fact the scales and tang aren't so flat that they vacuumed together due to the sheer precision.

I'm genuinely curious about your thoughts on this.

And please don't take this post as being dickish. I really do wonder why you say epoxy can't hold a scale onto a tang when I have several knives where epoxy does just that.

 

[bearfacedkiller]

It seems as though many reputable makers epoxy their handles on in addition to pins. It seems like that would also protect the tang from moisture. Maybe they do it because it is easier but it certainly seems stronger too. I have been looking at one maker for a while who epoxies and pins his handles and he has a YouTube video where he beats the snot out of his handle with a hammer and it doesn't come off until the wood was splintered and destroyed. He also says that they handle his dishwasher just fine.

 

[bodog]

It seems as though many reputable makers epoxy their handles on in addition to pins. It seems like that would also protect the tang from moisture. Maybe they do it because it is easier but it certainly seems stronger too. I have been looking at one maker for a while who epoxies and pins his handles and he has a YouTube video where he beats the snot out of his handle with a hammer and it doesn't come off until the wood was splintered and destroyed. He also says that they handle his dishwasher just fine.

Dude, I've beaten the hell out of my knife and it's done fine.

Trying to fix a different handle I worked on with a different knife I had to drill the pins and sand the scales off. I couldn't pry them off. I wonder if I'd frozen the knife maybe the epoxy would've been brittle and the scales would've come off easier bit I didn't think of it at the time. That T88 epoxy is pretty strong, no question. That's why I'm wondering why Bill is saying what he's saying. He must have some kind of reason.

Forgot to mention that there are several European and Russian knifemakers that don't pin their handles. If the knife is made to cut then the entire knife is suited for that purpose. Pins aren't that necessary if you use a knife for those reasons alone, but they're nice to have regardless.

 

[bearfacedkiller]

Yeah, I'm curious too. I just want to learn. I hope to eventually get more into this.

Maybe it is because there are no holes in the tang there. It seems like many makers drill holes in their tangs so the epoxy can flow through and sort of glue the scales together or at least use the hole as more to hold on to.

 

[bodog]

Yeah, I'm curious too. I just want to learn. I hope to eventually get more into this.

Maybe it is because there are no holes in the tang there. It seems like many makers drill holes in their tangs so the epoxy can flow through and sort of glue the scales together or at least use the hole as more to hold on to.

If you want to get into it then I'd really suggest taking about $180 to harbor freight and buying a sander, some clamps, a caliper, and a little bench top drill press. Then go to woodcraft and buy some cheap scales, adhesives, sandpaper sheets, and pinstock. Then go to trugrit and buy some decent grinding belts.

Altogether you'll spend about $300 and you'll be able to start doing some of this on your own. Seriously, it's not terribly difficult if you have just a little time, space, and inclination. It sure beats watching TV. Pretty soon you'll be thinking about making knives rather than just fixing a screwed up handle. That's what's gotten me started. Now I have about 10 blades coming in at various times within the next month. I'm going to put handles on them, make some kydex sheaths, and sell them. I don't expect to make a profit right off the bat but I'm using great steel and really good handle materials. There aren't too many people occupying that area. Either they're super expensive, made by unknown European makers, made by Americans using so so materials, or they're mass produced.

Whatever you decide, doing anything is better than doing nothing. Craft something with your own hands. You will probably be proud of everything you worked on, or at least you should be.

 

[killgar]

This is just an assumption, but I assume that when handles are "properly" secured to a knife blade using just epoxy, that the tang of the blade has been roughed-up/etched so that the epoxy has a suitable surface to bond to. And by "properly" I mean- intended to last forever without coming off.

I don't have any experience using epoxy to secure handles to knife blades, but it seems to me that a smooth, almost mirror-polished steel blade would not provide a good surface for lasting adhesion with epoxy.

The OP's Street Beat looks like it has a somewhat polished blade. I assume that the blade was polished prior to the handles being attached. If the area underneath the handles is likewise polished, then epoxy may not create a bond between handle and blade, but rather simply fill the gap.

 

[bodog]

This is just an assumption, but I assume that when handles are "properly" secured to a knife blade using just epoxy, that the tang of the blade has been roughed-up/etched so that the epoxy has a suitable surface to bond to. And by "properly" I mean- intended to last forever without coming off.

I don't have any experience using epoxy to secure handles to knife blades, but it seems to me that a smooth, almost mirror-polished steel blade would not provide a good surface for lasting adhesion with epoxy.

The OP's Street Beat looks like it has a somewhat polished blade. I assume that the blade was polished prior to the handles being attached. If the area underneath the handles is likewise polished, then epoxy may not create a bond between handle and blade, but rather simply fill the gap.

I don't assume that at all. Why would a company spend money polishing something they have no intention of ever being seen?

 

[killgar]

I don't assume that at all. Why would a company spend money polishing something they have no intention of ever being seen?

Like I said, it's an assumption. As in- I don't know for sure.

What I do know is that I have fixed-blade knives with tangs that have the exact same near-polished finish as the rest of the blade. I know this because the handles are held on with screws and can be removed. My old Al Mar SERE Operator and my Lion Steel M5 are two that immediately come to mind.

I don't know why a knifemaker would bother to put the same finish on the tang as they do the blade, but obviously some do. To assume that the tang of the Spyderco Street Beat doesn't have the same finish as the rest of the blade is just as much of an assumption as assuming that it does.

 

[bearfacedkiller]

It wouldn't be too hard to slide a small piece of sandpaper in there to rough it up. I would have to pry up a little tiny bit but it could be easily done. A business card almost fit.

I have been thinking about making some scales for a while and have been thinking about getting a belt sander to do some regrinds on some messed up knives. It is more time than money. I don't really watch TV except for sports and while it seems like I am always on the forums this is mainly idle time at work or stuck at home with a baby. When I get a free day I and I am not fixing something on the house or truck I try to get outside for some fishing or something. I am not complaining and I am grateful for what I have it is just that I am at a busy time in my life. We will get there someday.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Having internet problems. Hope this post makes it....
I didn't say you can't epoxy scales on a knife. I said you can't epoxy THAT scale down. It's not level-if you bend it down and glue it, it will just pop back up. All you can do with glue is fill the gap.
As far as epoxying scales- epoxy might hold for a long time. Then, it might not. Cold/heat, flexing, rust, and some chemicals can cause epoxy bonds to fail.
Mechanical fasteners like peened pins, screws, Corby bolts, etc. will not fail.
Glued pins are better than just glued scales, but why not use something that you know will work?

 

[Hard H2O]

When scales are fastened to a tang at manufacture the scales are perfectly flat as is the tang. For some reason that scale is no longer flat and parallel to the tang. Better to use the epoxy as has been said as a filler effectively adding material to the scale and bringing it parallel to the tang.

It was probably once epoxied and, if simply epoxied and forced into parallel it will once again assume its shape and pull away from the tang.

If you do not want to use the epoxy as a filler then remove the scale, sand it flat, and re-attach it using pins and epoxy.

 

[Keyman]

The pin could be over peened; causing the end of the scale to pop up just slightly.

If you are not going to remove the pins & scales to fix it the right way and you just want to fill the space....then epoxy is overkill.

I personally would remove the pins and scales.
Replace the old scales with something a bit more interesting and then anchor them down with screws.
That way I could more easily maintain or modify the scales in the future.
But, then again I have all the tools needed to make whatever scales I want.
Not everyone has that luxury.

 

[Elite_KG]

"West Marine's G-flex epoxy filled in the crack and a clamp to hold on down will likely fix it. I woukd try this before I "pinged" anything only to possibly damage it further. Good luck"

But then- you aren't a professional cutler, are you?

No, I don't guess I am. Not even sure how one goes about declaring themselves a professional cutler. I do know what I have made by hand and it includes the subject matter. I simply offered an alternative to "pinging" as a first approach that requires little in the way of tools. The positive aspect is "pinging" is still an option.
Again best of luck to the OP no matter the method.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

You would do well to visit my web site then. You seem to not understand that your suggestion simply won't work.
It's "peening," not "pinging" by the way.

 

[bearfacedkiller]

Hey guys. I just wanted to leave an update. I hate threads with no resolution. So I have been meaning to try making scales for a while now and even had some basic materials laying around. I decided to just work some silicone adhesive into the gap on the Street Beat and put the knife to use. For the time being it is still better than anything I know how to do. This did kickstart my motivation however and I finally made a set of Zebrawood scales for my Swick3. It came out pretty good for a first try and now I got the itch. I have another set in the works. Fun stuff!

I made them thick and slab like on purpose. I was gonna contour them more but it is such a small handle that it fits my hand really good like this. I have another Swick that I will try putting much more contoured grips on. It is just Zebrawood, brass pins, epoxy and Watco Danish Oil. I managed to line the grain up along the spine very well. I am especially pleased with the way the grain came out.

Thanks for the motivation and here are some pics. Of course feedback is always welcome but go easy on me as this is my first try and did it with just hand tools.

 

[bodog]

That looks great man. If you did that with only hand tools, imagine what you could do with tools that make this stuff easier!

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Very good job!

 

[Elite_KG]

You would do well to visit my web site then. You seem to not understand that your suggestion simply won't work.
It's "peening," not "pinging" by the way.

Rather than say something won't work, I chose to offer an alternative that a novice could employ to correct his issue to moderate satisfaction for two reasons: 1. There is a possibility that epoxy and a clamp will hold it in place (depending on the stress of the material; pretty sure even a professional cutler cannot determine that from an internet photo. 2. Even if it doesn't hold, epoxy can be reapplied to fill the very minute void. It is not a large separation. Black die would be a further sugesstion depending on the expecation of the final product.

Sure you can re-scale the knife and a myriad of other options including purchasing a new one; low percentage of people will do such I imagine. It would be a personal choice.
The majority of people are not professional cutlers and suggesting to have someone of unknown skill swing a tool can very likely lead to a bigger problem.

You could have simply offered your suggestion and let the OP decide based on his confidence level and final expectation. Rather you will tell someone something will not work as if it were a certainty. You must be a professional.

I would be best served as to stray far from such "professionalism."

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Listen- I don't just idly post stuff here to see my own words.
When I do post it's with 45 years of experience as a master cutler, and I do it to help people. Perhaps you would do well to read and learn from people who know more than you.

Yes, I can determine from the photo that epoxy won't hold the handle down. Why do you have a problem with that? You have no problem suggesting he slop glue all over his knife.
As I said-epoxy can be used to fill the void. It will be difficult to make it look right though.

Your sarcasm is noted. Anyone who doubts my abilities and accomplishments should visit my site. I'm an authorized repair center for about a dozen major manufacturers, I designed the very popular "Leverletto" knife, I do museum-quality restorations on extremely valuable cutlery, and I make custom knives. What, exactly do you do with cutlery?