Michael Walker Liner Lock Controversy

Joined
Sep 16, 1999
Messages
71
By now most of you already know that in New Orleans, the Knifemakers Guild adopted a Ron Lake motion to admit that Walker INVENTED the liner lock. He also wants makers who recieve royalties from production collaberations using HIS liner lock to send him money.Would like to hear your opinions. In advance, play nice. I hate to delete or edit posts.
 
Gee Mike doesn't look over a 100 years old.Maybe he invented the fountain of youth to.
Bob
 
I heard about this from Tim Herman and Darrel Ralph the other night in IRC chat. So I did a little background research at the USPTO web site. Here is what I found out, and what I think about this issue.

First, Mr. Walker DOES NOT own a patent (enforceable Or expired) on the liner lock mechanism. He has NO RIGHTS under US law to sue to collect royalties or licensing fees from makers or manufacturers using this mechanism.

Michael Walker does Indeed own the trademark for the word Linerlock (registration number 1585333 03/06/90). There is no expiration date on a trademark as long as the owner continues to use the mark. It is registered for a ten year term. Enforcement of the owners legal rights is the responsibility of the owner (he must pay all costs associated with enforcement of the trademark rights).

It sounds to me like Mr. Walker is trying to use the Guild's influence to help enforce his right to use the mark 'linerlock'. If he can accomplish this action, then he would be able to demand that users of this mark pay him royalties or face sanctions (what exactly?) from the Guild.

It is important to distinguish a Patent from a trademark. The linerlock mechanism IS NOT patented. Walker (and Lake) own three different patents covering locking mechanisms and safeties for locks. These do not cover the mechanism commonly called a 'linerlock'.

Makers are free to use the linerlock mechanism without paying Mr. Walker any royalties or licensing fees. But it is up to Mr. Walker to pursue legal remedies to stop makers from using the word 'linerlock' to describe their knives. I'm guessing that this is in such common use now that Mr. Walker would have a very hard time convincing a court to sanction users of this word. Especially if the word 'linerlock' is not used on the knife or it's packaging or advertising.

This strikes me as a clever way (using the Knifemakers Guild) to try force the knifemaking community to pay him money for any knife described as a 'linerlock'. Curiously, the name Walker lock is NOT trademarked. Any maker should be able to use that name for a knife with a 'linerlock' without paying Mr. Walker anything.

Mr. Walker (Mr. Lake?) is trying to extort money from honest folks using a the common name for a mechanism which he DID NOT invent. This does not mean that he will not meet with some sucess, however.

I am not at all certain what this Guild action means. Is the Knifemakers Guild going to enforce sanctions against makers and manufacturers who fail to pay Mr. Walker royalties. Will they expel makers from the Guild for paying to pay these royalities? Will the Guild pay for legal representation for Mr. Walker to enforce is (questionable) trademark rights?

The following is excerpted from the USPTO website:

Trademark rights arise from either (1) actual use of the mark, or (2) the filing of a proper application to register a mark in the Patent and Trademark Office (PTO) stating that the applicant has a bona fide intention to use the mark in commerce regulated by the U.S. Congress. (See below, under "Types of Applications," for a discussion of what is meant by the terms commerce and use in commerce.) Federal registration is not required to establish rights in a mark, nor is it required to begin use of a mark. However, federal registration can secure benefits beyond the rights acquired by merely using a mark. For example, the owner of a federal registration is presumed to be the owner of the mark for the goods and services specified in the registration, and to be entitled to use the mark nationwide.

There are two related but distinct types of rights in a mark: the right to register and the right to use. Generally, the first party who either uses a mark in commerce or files an application in the PTO has the ultimate right to register that mark. The PTO's authority is limited to determining the right to register.
The right to use a mark can be more complicated to determine. This is particularly true when two parties have begun use of the same or similar marks without knowledge of one another and neither has a federal registration. Only a court can render a decision about the right to use, such as issuing an injunction or awarding damages for infringement. It should be noted that a federal registration can provide significant advantages to a party involved in a court proceeding. The PTO cannot provide advice concerning rights in a mark. Only a private attorney can provide such advice.

Unlike copyrights or patents, trademark rights can last indefinitely if the owner continues to use the mark to identify its goods or services. The term of a federal trademark registration is 10 years, with 10-year renewal terms. However, between the fifth and sixth year after the date of initial registration, the registrant must file an affidavit setting forth certain information to keep the registration alive. If no affidavit is filed, the registration is canceled.

An applicant may apply for federal registration in three principal ways. (1) An applicant who has already commenced using a mark in commerce may file based on that use (a "use" application). (2) An applicant who has not yet used the mark may apply based on a bona fide intention to use the mark in commerce (an "intent-to-use" application). For the purpose of obtaining federal registration, commerce means all commerce which may lawfully be regulated by the U.S. Congress, for example, interstate commerce or commerce between the U.S. and another country.
The use in commerce must be a bona fide use in the ordinary course of trade, and not made merely to reserve a right in a mark. Use of a mark in promotion or advertising before the product or service is actually provided under the mark on a normal commercial scale does not qualify as use in commerce. Use of a mark in purely local commerce within a state does not qualify as "use in commerce." If an applicant files based on a bona fide intention to use in commerce, the applicant will have to use the mark in commerce and submit an allegation of use to the PTO before the PTO will register the mark.

I think it is interesting that the name Interlock was also registered, but is abandoned. Anyone can use this name. Similarly, I'm guessing that the use of the mark 'liner-lock' with a hyphen would not be protected.

Let Walker pursue his own lawsuits against users of the 'linerlock' name. I hope that the Guild does not help him in his (or Lake's) scheme. As I put in bold text above, the trademark law is not in place to merely reserve the right to the mark. It is supposed to actually be used in the course of doing business. I think Mr. Walker may have a tough time in a court of law. I dunno about the Guild. Sounds like the resolution has passed. But what does it Mean?


basic trademark information

Paracelsus
 
I suggest we adopt a new name for the "Linerlock(tm)" mechanism. Seems that this would solve the problem. I vote for "C-lock" as the new name, in honor of the original designs.
smile.gif


Jeff Jenness

[This message has been edited by jeffj (edited 07-28-2000).]
 
Para
Good info. I have heard rumors for years about Walker trying to get royalities for his lock. Sounds like now he has an ally in Lake.The clock started ticking when they did that collaboration a couple of years ago and started their own Co.Bullfrog or something. I think the whole thing sucks and just emphasisis some peoples greed.
Bob

[This message has been edited by Strider (edited 07-28-2000).]
 
i am quite sure that michael walker is penniless and that is what this thing is all about...when you only get $2500 or 4000 for a knife theres not much left over for the bills.....My wedgielocks work great...thanks for the tip!!!!!!
 
I change my vote to "WedgieLock(tm)"...btw, doesn't the "tm" stand for "tom mayo". HA

Jeff

[This message has been edited by jeffj (edited 07-28-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Paracelsus:
I am not at all certain what this Guild action means. Is the Knifemakers Guild going to enforce sanctions against makers and manufacturers who fail to pay Mr. Walker royalties. Will they expel makers from the Guild for paying to pay these royalities? Will the Guild pay for legal representation for Mr. Walker to enforce is (questionable) trademark rights?
Paracelsus

Before everybody gets his/her panties in a bunch, I think we should get some Guild members to chime in here on answering the above very important question.

I have no idea what Lake and Walker's motives are. The Bullfrog project is dead, per Michael's comments to me at Guild (and I just mean he told me this in person, not like I'm somehow connected or any BS like that).

Before we bash, we should seek to understand. I talked with Michael at the Guild, and came away with this: his basic modus operandi as a maker is he's a combination machinest-supreme (left brain) and artist in Taos NM (right brain). He takes enough high dollar "commission" work each year to make ends meet, and then spends the rest of his time making knives he wants to make, and he said "and these end up being better knives". He doesn't need the money... he and Lake are among the best paid in the biz based on their TALENT as machinists, craftsmen, and perfectionists.

Michael may have popularized the liner lock (LinerLock TM), but as you can see, it is used widely and apparently he has no patent to use as recourse. The simple spelling changes proposed are enough.

See first to understand ...

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rdangerer@home.com
 
As for Mr. Walker and Mr. Lake, I guess people gotta do what they feel they gotta do. Good luck to us all in our own endeavors to be recognized and rewarded as we feel is appropriate.

This doesn't, however, explain how such a motion, recognizing him as the lock's inventor, could be passed by the Guild's voting membership.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."
 
The way I see it is the Guild has chosen to recognise him as the inventor, but the rest of us know better. I would say Mr Walker popularised it and somewhat refined it and has gotten plenty of recognition for his work. The next wedge lock I build I will remember that.........

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www.simonichknives.com
 
Para and all
I dont know what the real situation is with the locking liner . From what I can tell there is no patent. But I hear that the lock was invented over 100 years ago. I just confused about the term invented I think?

I also feel that McHenry Williams,(axis) Bob at recat,(rollingLock) and collins (bolt lock) and others should be in the archive for there locks also . Whats good for one should be good for all?

Comments?


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-29-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Darrel Ralph:

I also feel that McHenry Williams,(axis) Bob at recat,(rollingLock) and collins (bolt lock) and others should be in the archive for there locks also . Whats good for one should be good for all?

I only have a problem with the second "also".

Walker has no claim on inventing "that" lock, and doesn't deserve the recognition that these other gentlemen do for their work.

They invented their products, they patented them, and they are reaping the benefits. Walker and Lake should be pleased with the money and acclaim they're receiving for their brilliant LAWKS
rolleyes.gif
.

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AKTI Member #A000832

"Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, the bear eats you."
 
Gentlemen, I'm still concerned about the Guild and its view to rewrite history. I'm having a difficult time accepting that the MEMBERS VOTED for revisionary history. WHY, maybe, many feel that when their chance comes, that the Guild will support them also?

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Howard A. Faltz, Owner
Arizona Knife Source
"Keep it Sharp"
Luke 22:36
www.azknife.com
 
Howard
I feel if the vote was taken on paper instead of by show of hands the vote would have been different. Peer pressure is a real vote getter.
wink.gif


[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 07-29-2000).]
 
Regardless of how the vote was taken it was wrong. For years the Guild was the final word and now it seems that it has gone by the roadside like so much waste. How rational thinking people who know the ins and outs of all aspects of edged tools could vote like that tells me their is something seriously wrong here.
Bob
 
From what I have heard about the vote, Darell is exactly right. Seems their was a lot of sucking up going on, and the peer pressure thing.

Howard, this concernes me also, even though I am not a member of the guild, what will they try to change next? Who invented the drop point? I have one 10,000 or so years old!

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www.simonichknives.com
 
Guys, as ususal and while not intentional there has been a lot of disinformation in this thread.

First, it was Ron Lake who brought the subject up. Michael Walker (or Ron Lake for that matter) were not trying to extort money from anyone. Although, I belive Ron may have been trying to persuade those makers who work in collaboration with factories. That use a knife featuring a liner lock to compensate Michael in some fashion.

Michael will be the first one to admit that while he did popularize the locking liner, in fact he did not invent it. He and Ron Lake are both smart enough to understand that in business if you don't patent something, you do not receive royalties.

From talking with several different makers, it seemed to be their general opinion that Ron wanted his good friend to recognized for his contribution to custom knives.

No the Guild will not rewrite history (as if they could) to state that Michael "invented" the liner lock. However, they did vote to make a note of Michael's contribution to custom knives.

The humorus thing is that of all the custom knifemakers to vote on to recognize for their contributions, they chose at this point Michael. It is humorus as Michael is agruably the best custom folder maker in the world. For those of you who have never seen one of Michael's knives. Do yourself a favor and handle one. They are incredible.

I think Ron was doing something for Michael that he would never ask for himself. That is in print, gain the recogniiton of his organization. As far as the membership of the Guild is concerned, Im sure each and every knife maker would acknowledge the skill(s) that Michael has.

It is good that Howard brought this subject up. As you could fill mega bandwith with what was actually not said or implied.




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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor"
Albert Einstein
 
Les, i hate to have to admit this, but you are right on the money
tongue.gif
hehehe

michael is a very quiet person and was against ron lake opening this up at the guild meeting.

i think the main problem was the wording ron used in his opening motion. he surely knows that michael didnt "invent" the lock mechanism itself but vastly improved it and truly did make it strong functional lock and did revolutionize the folding knife industry! just look how many makers make their living off the linerlock knife and how popular it is because of michael. look at how the folding knife industry has grown because of the work michael has done.
i now believe that ron just wanted his good friend to get the acknowledgement he deserves for his accomplishments. michael is not the kind of man to beat his own drum in public. michael deserves a large amount of credit for his accomplishments but would not ask for it himself.

i am waiting on a call from michael to clear this up from the man himself as i feel we are good friends too and he has helped me in learning about linerlocks.

confused as always.......herman the BF grouch
biggrin.gif
 
The locking liner has built the folding knife market. But so did the lockback and the slip joint. WHO INVENTED THEM. Shoudl they have credit to?
Les I can see your point. But I cant see the point of no automatics, and paying for a lock that is not patented. That IMHO is the issue.
Maybe the presentation was off. I felt it was preplaned. Just my opinion.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
 
These two guys make one heck of a knife, but so do a bunch of others. A Guild vote on this is symbolic and I doubt that it will go any further(the guild has enough to do without another can of worms). Recognition for his work on this lock system is well deserved and I for one am glad he got it.

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old pete
 
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