Microscope

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Feb 17, 2007
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How powerful of microscope do you need to see the structures in a piece of steel. Is there a inexpensive one that hooks to your computer that would do the job. Not making a career out of it. Just curious about a couple things.
 
You need at least 100x , much better if you have 1000x. They would have to be metallurgical not biological microscopes !
 
Cheap, or good? huge differences
http://www.metallurgicalmicroscopes.com/
some cheapies here

Carl Zeiss makes some good ones.
No prices listed, but I'm pretty sure my car was cheaper.

Many microscopes now are readily made to accept cameras, or there are adaptor kits available. Surprisingly, they can be fairly inexpensive.

Mete is right -
You can find a lot of used high quality scopes from used scientific equipment dealers
but thousands of them will be biological, not metallurgical.

Light cannot pass through the metal sample, unlike the glass slides used in other specimens.
 
Can you cheat the light source and use a biological scope with a secondary light to illuminate the sample from above?
 
Can you cheat the light source and use a biological scope with a secondary light to illuminate the sample from above?

metallurgical scopes have the light path run along through the optical path. for the low power (50x) at work we have one scope that has a ringlight but at 100x and higher the optics are too close to the metal for that to work. I do most of my photos at 100x and 500x

-Page
 
Maybe I can help a little.

The microscope that you need does not have to be a microscope developed for metallurgical purposes. The question is only the light path, whether it uses transillumination (through the specimen) or epi-illumination (from the same direction which you are viewing). You obviously ant the latter--epi-illumination.

You also want an upright microscope, not an inverted one.

It would be helpful for you to have a rotating nosepiece, so that you can easily switch between objectives.

Why am I hassling you with all of these details? Because these days, you can do v ery well for yourself in the used microscope market. Google things like "used laboratory equipment" or "refurbished laboratory equipment" and microscope. They will have any number of things that you can buy and use. I have seen microscopes that go for over $40,000 sell for less than $5,000 on occasion, and less than $10,000 is common. However, they will not say "metallurgical" on them. You must either search for one that has epi-illumination or can accept this modification (and then know how to add it yourself.

You can PM me if you need further advice on this; I don't often check the shop talk parts of the forum.
 
Thanks. At least now I now a bit about what to look for. I won't spend a lot on this as there are some other things that I want more. Just thought I would check and see what it takes and start looking around. Jim
 
How powerful of microscope do you need to see the structures in a piece of steel. Is there a inexpensive one that hooks to your computer that would do the job. Not making a career out of it. Just curious about a couple things.

ib2v4u, this would depend on what structures you want to observe. 100X is good for a general overview, or getting started in checking grain size, 400X will allow you to examine most of the products of heat treating that we deal with if the grain size is moderate. If things a very fine 1000X comes in very handy but is more involved because I have found that cheap 1000X objectives are no really worth it and often at these resolutions a less expensive objective could involve oil immersion (and canola oil will not do just fine ;) once again there are oils made specifically for it (I am just so closed minded;)).

The scope can be gotten rather inexpensive if you have some experience in working on them, the objectives can range from cheap to more than you would pay for a used scope.

So the basic scope is doable, after all I managed it, however that is only the beginning. One cannot just cut off a piece a steel and drop it under the scope and expect to see anything at all. The steel has to undergo a rather involved preparation process to allow the scope to see anything but a pure white field filled with black scratches.

Samples need to be cut off with zero heat (and remember we work with hardened steel) so a water cooled diamond or abrasive saw is often required. Then I rough grind the end clean and mount he work for polishing (you can go without the mounting but it will make polishing a pain and will make observing the edges of the sample almost impossible due to undercutting, as well as complicating the leveling process on the scope). My polishing begins at 200X, and then 400X and ends on the belt at 600X. Next I lap by hand at 800X, 1200X and 2000X before moving on to the metallography polisher. I built mine myself, but it still required a good DC motor, a variable speed reversible controller, and an appropriate disk attachment. I got diamond lapping disks for the initial work but they were quite pricey, so I found ways to get to the diamond compounds quicker and use leather backed disked made for the job. At this point the sample is polished at 3000X, 8000X and 15,000X before the final polish. Between every step the sample MUST be completely cleaned and rinsed of all previous grit material, I have found that Xylene works well for this, but you must use a very soft wipe. The last steps are at 50,000X and 100,000X.

At this point I etch the sample, you cannot see anything but a solid white field (unless you still have scratches) until it is etched. Not any etch will do, and ferric chloride is absolutely worthless for this. Many microstructures have a specific etch that will bring them out, I use nital the most. Nital is a special solution of nitric acid highly diluted in ethyl alcohol. My nital is a 2% solution. The sample is rinsed and cleaned with alcohol and then immersed in the nital until the "bloom" appears (the surface darkens) then the sample is immediately water rinsed and immersed in alcohol for a secondary rinsing. I remove it from the alcohol and immediately place it at an appropriate angle in a heated air blast. Water or alcohol left to dry on its own will destroy your etched surface. Air is the way to go as touching it with anything, regardless of how soft will be the equivalent of steel wool at this point.

How the etching works is that it makes ledges and ridges on the surfaces for the light transmitted through scope to bounce off at different angles. If that light comes back at you in all the same direction you will only see that solid white, but when the edges of the structures are undercut they begin to bounce light away at different directions and you can then see the stuff.

If working with an inverted scope all you have to do now is drop the mounted sample (another reason I work with standard sized mountings around the sample) onto the holder on the stage and start viewing. If you have an upright scope, you will need to level the work to the stage and objectives or only one side the image will be in focus. I have found the easiest way to do this is to put a small ball of modeling clay on a microscope slide and then set you sample on it. Protect the sample with a non abrasive paper and use a precision machinist vice to squish the whole thing out flat and level, then just put your slide in the scope and start looking.

If you wish to do photography you will need a whole other list of adapters and lenses to mount to a scope, and I had to make many adapters myself since they simply are not out there for my camera. Digital interfaces are the way to go if you are not really skilled in metallography. I tried the whole shoot an entire roll of film hoping to get one good image thing and do not advise it.

So if there is one thing that I would have to say is that metallography is a whole lot more than just buying a scope and going to it. It took me years to get set up to show the images I post occasionally, and in the end it really has little to do with my knifemaking productivity, in fact it is one of the largest time consumers I have gotten tangled up in so in many ways it has hampered my productivity. But it is VERY useful for telling people they are full of &%#! when they are spouting on about some half-assed method being "just fine" or as good as all that fancy industrial stuff- the steel doesn't lie.
 
There are a number of reasons that I would suggest an upright scope over an inverted one for these purposes, but the most important (for this thread) would have to do with price: there are many more of them in the used market. Another would be the ability to improvise epi-illumination sources for the upright, if necessary. As far as the ability to focus, the depth of focus depends only on the optics, not whether the microscope is upright or inverted. However, the specimen placement could be easier on the inverted, depending on the specific configuration.

If you plan on doing photography, you should look toward purchasing a microscope body with a photography tube form the git-go. It will save you money later on, when one of your objectives is to make sure that your photograph and viewed image are in the same focal plane. This is not as simple as it sounds, especially when the focal plane is a couple of micrometers (or less) thick. Doing this yourself as an afterthought is no fun at all.

By far the most important thing about microscopes is the optics. The body and light source will not help if the optics are screwed up, and in optics, you get what you pay for. (I have single objectives that cost in the 5 figure-range). There are good less-expensive ones out there, but buyer beware!! All of them are delicate and need to be maintained properly, and they are high maintenance. (The idea of canola oil on an objective makes me shudder.)

One cautionary note is that when buying a microscope, setting it up is important; the light path is crucial for proper microscopy. If you work at the limits of the light microscope (and why else would we be discussing 1000X) mistakes in the light path such as being off-center will distort your image.

Finally, when working at these magnification levels, please keep in mind that the limits of resolution of the light microscope are 0.2 micrometer. You can see things that are smaller, but you cannot accurately measure them.

(Please note that I don't really know how much of this is known in this community. I am a scientist that does quite a bit of microscopy, but not a metallurgist. So if I am being redundant, boring, pedantic, or just a jackass in general, please tell me and I will cease and desist--with no hard feelings. I am just trying to help in my limited way.)

I hope that I am being of some help.
 
Shaldag, I felt foolish about my question after I typed my longer reply as I realized I can get focused on how I do things and then forget why I started doing them. For me the inverted scope is a no-brainer simply because I already got a couple of good deals and I fix my samples in a standardized mounting that conveniently fits into the stage bracket. However if one is using a loose sample the inverted is indeed rather problematic and can be expensive.

Your point of matching the focal plane of the camera port to what you see through the eyepieces is so valid that it cannot be over-emphasized, even with the advantage of microscopes specifically for photography work and digital cameras that allow me to see the image before snapping the shutter I have to stay on top of this issue at all times. My PME has four different eyepieces that can be rotated into use in the camera port alone and balancing them all out at once to what I see up above is no small feat with the image right there on the screen, I could not even imagine it with a film camera.

My uprights I had to work out the photography all on my own. On my two inverted metallographs the camera setup was already there and once I turned down a fine metric threaded male/male adapter it became a matter of screwing on the camera lens mount to the scope and going to work. They both came with the old Olympus C35 film units attached, but I couldn’t ditch those dinosaurs fast enough if I had digital.
 
What do you use nowadays for mounting specimens, Kevin? Dating myself horribly, we used to use a hot press and bakelite resin powder. Our inverted metallograph was the size of a desk and used a rather persnickety carbon arc lamp system. Old beast had excellent optics, though.
 
Shaldag, I felt foolish about my question after I typed my longer reply as I realized I can get focused on how I do things and then forget why I started doing them. For me the inverted scope is a no-brainer simply because I already got a couple of good deals and I fix my samples in a standardized mounting that conveniently fits into the stage bracket. However if one is using a loose sample the inverted is indeed rather problematic and can be expensive.

If you have a standardized mounting system that works and will not need to vary it (too often)--this is not trivial. One can spend all one's time on microscopy, and if you are not careful, all of that time will be spent tinkering and fine-tuning, and none on the reasons that you are doing microscopy in the first place. I think that you have precisely the right approach. Never lose sight of the goal.

Your point of matching the focal plane of the camera port to what you see through the eyepieces is so valid that it cannot be over-emphasized, even with the advantage of microscopes specifically for photography work and digital cameras that allow me to see the image before snapping the shutter I have to stay on top of this issue at all times. My PME has four different eyepieces that can be rotated into use in the camera port alone and balancing them all out at once to what I see up above is no small feat with the image right there on the screen, I could not even imagine it with a film camera.

Well, it is easy to make that point when you have wasted as much time on the subject as I have, and I started back in the day of film. Getting parfocal images (same focus between camera and view) is NOT trivial. I firmly believe that by now, I know all the tricks of the trade (I build my own research microscopes on occasion, depending on use) and I still feel that I have a lot to learn. There is no teacher like experience, and bitter experience (like taking several pics until you get the one that is perfect) is the best teacher of all.

My uprights I had to work out the photography all on my own. On my two inverted metallographs the camera setup was already there and once I turned down a fine metric threaded male/male adapter it became a matter of screwing on the camera lens mount to the scope and going to work. They both came with the old Olympus C35 film units attached, but I couldn’t ditch those dinosaurs fast enough if I had digital.

I surely do understand that sentiment--and share it completely. No nostalgia for the old days of microphotography here.
 
Thanks for all of this. I knew you had to polish and etch to prepare the specimen. I didn't realize the degree. I have had my curiosity about this subject and had to ask. I got lots of information and appreciate the time and answers. I don't know that I will ever go into this. It is obviously more complicated than I care to get into AT THIS TIME. But, I now know a lot more and what to keep my eyes out for. Our inspections department never does this, but we have many outside inspectors and companies come in. You never know what life might bring your way. Thank you all Jim
 
In the met lab I work in we typically polish down to 3 micron with diamond spray on felt laps (after sandpaper to 1200 grit on disc laps, then 9 micron diamond) Usually I mount thiings in bakelite "pucks" 1 1/2 inch in diameter ( we can also do a poured epoxy resin if the fancy hydraulic puck-press is on the fritz, but I would rather fix the puck press) the microscope I use most often is an Olympus upright with epi-illumination and a camera. I do the modeling clay ball on a glass slide for leveling (we have little leveling presses that maintain paralellism somewhat, although at 1000x it is still noticably sloppy)

-page
 
What do you use nowadays for mounting specimens, Kevin? Dating myself horribly, we used to use a hot press and bakelite resin powder. Our inverted metallograph was the size of a desk and used a rather persnickety carbon arc lamp system. Old beast had excellent optics, though.

The carbon arc thing does date you a bit; you didn't have gas lamps for general lighting in the lab did you? ;) Bakelite type settings are still out there but the heat press unit is where I drew the line in my expenditures. Buehler is the most recognized source of supplies but..$$$$$$ :( . There is a new place in Ohio that sells supplies at a much more reasonable rate. For most of my simple work I use resins to set the pieces in. I mix it up, lay a strip of 2" masking tape on a tray sticky side up then stick my rough ground samples face down on it. I found a plastic pipe that is the perfect inside diameter for my stage mounting so I sliced dozens of 3/4" rings from it and these I just pres into the tape around the samples. Then I pour the resin and vibrate the snot out of it to remove any bubbles.

I cannot remember the name of the place in Ohio right off the top of my head but have the catalog in my shop. They were just one of the places that contacted me when they found out what I was doing. I mentioned how much Olympus impressed me in this regard during a conversation with shaldag. Olympus is a pretty big company and yet they saw my webpage and called me one day to let me know if they could ever be of any help with information or service just give them a call. They did this knowing that I work with a generation of scopes they will not be able to sell me much stuff for; they also sent me a packet with some inexpensive goodies in it. We can all agree how refreshing it is to see that this is a hell of a different attitude towards the little guy than a place like Heat Bath/Park Metallurgical has!

There are many big guys who realize the little guy is worth their time as well. Along with Olympus there is also a chemical company, whose name escapes me at the moment, where I got my current supply of borax. I called to ask if I could purchase 50lbs from them, and they informed me that they sell it by the box car, but then asked me for my address and sent me a 50lb. sample for free :thumbup: (heck that is what they spill loading the stuff).
Our own beloved Crucible Steel perhaps doesn't get the credit they deserve for treating the little guy right. They are happy to deal with our puny orders and have always been great to deal with on the phone. One of the best experiences I ever had with any customer service came from Crucible. I got to know some of the folks at the Grand Rapids office, about an hour away, pretty well and one day got a bar of O1 that didn't behave right. I called them up and told them about the problem and about an hour later one of the guys I normally work with was in my driveway with another bar a steel! Service doesn't get any better than that for one bar of steel! He spent some time checking out the shop and what I do and I know I can call on those folks whenever I need something and not get treated like a little guy.
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