Microtech Pricing Policy

Joined
May 4, 1999
Messages
534
I'd like to get people's opinions on Microtech's pricing policy. From what I've read from some dealers, Microtech is enforcing price fixing on all dealers in order to make traditional retailers more competetive with the internet dealers.

IMHO, if this is the case, it is wrong. I think that if the internet allows dealers to be more competetive, it should be encouraged! If internet dealers are forced to charge the same prices as physical stores, it seems that they won't be able to compete, since the main advantage they offer is price, at the expense of not being able to examine a purchase before buying...

So what do you all think? I'm not trying to start a flame war here, I just don't think I have enough information to form an opinion yet.

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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
Ryan,

Only from what I have read on the internet, what you have written is not exactly their policy. The way I understand it is Microtech only limits the ADVERTISED price, what the dealer actually sells for is up to them. That's why most MT dealers say "E-mail for price" now in their ads. I am not a MT dealer and have not actually seen their policy. Foofytr explained it here in the dealer for sale forum http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/000961.html
Spyderco as well as other companies do the same. My opinion is that they do it so their dealers who pay for things like a website, store front, etc can make a living without too much cutthroat competition from parttime, out of the home, sellers who have zero expenses and very low markup. Now to answer how I feel about it, I don't have a problem with it. Find a good dealer who gives good service along with decent prices and stick with them rather than searching all over the internet trying to save 50 cents. Read Mike Turber's excellent perspective in the Trial issue of the online magazine about this, then support the forums and subscribe.
 
I guess that my thoughts are that if company A sells a knife to a dealer or a wholesaler, then said dealer or wholesaler should be allowed to sell, and advertise, the knife for whatever. Once the dealer or wholesaler has bought the knife it is theirs to do whatever with. I don't think it is good to limit competition. Competition is good for a variety of reasons. And while it can be said that allowing dealers to only show MSRP and make customers contact the dealers for the real price is not eliminating competition, it still doesn't make sense. I believe Spyderco and Microtech do this. Doesn't Chris Reeve make all dealers sell his knives at a fixed price?

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Dennis Bible
Knoxville, Tennessee


 
there was a notice in the new Cutlery Shop catalog to call for Spyderco prices because they were limited to price that could be advertised. Not sure if this is good or bad, but it does seem to protect the little dealer.

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lifter
Phil. 4:13

Dave
Wharton,NJ


 
Chief,

Thanks for the link, that answered my question. I searched the general forum before I posted my question, but didn't think about searching the dealer forum. Anyway, I guess prohibiting dealers from advertising discount prices is at least better than disallowing them from charging less than MSRP, which was how I understood the policy before.

------------------
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
Folks,

Microtech has almost been driven out of business before because some hobiests sold knives at just above cost while other dealers tried to make a living at it. As folks saw the lowest price they could get they complained to the folks that stocked inventory and operated a "standard" retail operation (regardless of whether it was "brick and mortar" or not). This often lead to dealers dropping MT and even to dumping. You can't run a business making knives of their quality if you can't schedule production, hours, material purchase, financing, etc. What this means is that while MT can't control prices they can control what folks advertise. They're just trying to survive with a business that pays taxes, rent, workman's comp. insurance, interest on loans, etc.

Take care,

Mike

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TANSTAAFL


 
Here is section 4 of MT's pricing policy.

4. Dealers shall sell Microtech products at the manufacutrer's suggested retail price (hereinafter referred to as the "MSRP") promulgated from time to time by Microtech with no variations either above or below said MSRP greater than $10.00. All rules and requirements set forth in this agreement, including as may be subsequently developed from time to time by Microtech, shall apply to dealer, irrespective of whether dealer is acting sole as a dealer or as long as acting as a retailer.

Dealer shall monitor all dealers and retailers to whom and to which dealer has sold or is selling Microtech products in order to assure that pricing is maintained and retailers preserve the manufacturing integrity or the Microtech products.

Well folks what do you think?

I will tell you what I think. This agreement is not legal and is better known as price fixing. It does not state that they wish to control the advertsied pricing.

This is against the FTC rules and is a direct violation of US law. Here is the FTC's statement on their site.

The FTC's antitrust arm, the Bureau of Competition, seeks to prevent business practices that restrain competition. As a result, purchasers benefit from lower prices and greater availability of products and services.

The Bureau carries out this mission by investigating alleged law violations and, when appropriate, recommending that the Commission take formal enforcement action. If the Commission does decide to take action, the Bureau will help to implement that decision through litigation in federal court or before administrative law judges.

There are several laws and acts which govern how the market is to be regulated and how manufacturers are to react to the pricing of their products in the market place. A quick visit to the FTC web site will give you tons of info. Simply use their search feature and look up "price fixing" and you will find 222 links to more info. www.ftc.gov

Read over some of that and come back. Of course I can copy and paste what I have found but it makes a better impact when you read it.

More from the FTC.

Illegal Business Practices

Horizontal agreements among competitors:

Agreements among parties in a competing relationship can raise antitrust suspicions.
Competitors may be agreeing to restrict competition among themselves. Antitrust
authorities must investigate the effect and purpose of an agreement to determine its
legality.

Agreements on price. Agreements about price or
price-related matters such as credit terms potentially are the most serious. That’s
because price often is the principal way that firms compete. A "naked" agreement
on price -- where the agreement is not reasonably related to the firms’ business
operations -- isillegal. Hard core -- clear or blatant -- price-fixing is subject
to criminal prosecution.

Are similarity of prices, simultaneous price changes or high prices
indications of price-fixing? Not always. These conditions can result from price-fixing,
but to prove the charge, antitrust authorities would need evidence of an agreement to fix
prices. Price similarities -- or the appearance of simultaneous changes in price -- also
can result from normal economic conditions. For example, vigorous competition can drive
prices down to a common level. A general increase in wholesale gasoline costs due to
production shortages can cause gasoline stations to increase retail prices around the same
time. As for the appearance of uniformly "high" prices, collusion may not be the
only basis for the situation. Prices may increase if consumer demand for a product is
particularly high and the supply is limited. Ask any shopper in search of a particularly
popular children’s toy.

Agreements to restrict output. An agreement to restrict
production or output is illegal because reducing the supply of a product or service
inevitably drives up its price.

Boycotts. A group boycott -- an agreement among competitors not
to deal with another person or business -- violates the law if it is used to force another
party to pay higher prices.

Boycotts to prevent a firm from entering a market or to disadvantage a
competitor also are illegal. Recent cases involved a group of physicians charged with
using a boycott to prevent a managed care organization from establishing a competing
health care facility in Virginia and retailers who used a boycott to force manufacturers
to limit sales through a competing catalog vendor.

Are boycotts for other purposes illegal? It depends on their effect on
competition and possible justifications. A group of California auto dealers used a boycott
to prevent a newspaper from telling consumers how to use wholesale price information when
shopping for cars. The FTC proved that the boycott affected price competition and had no
reasonable justification.

Market division.Agreements among competitors to divide
sales territories or allocate customers -- essentially, agreements not to compete -- are
presumed to beillegal. At issue in one recent case was an agreement between cable
television companies not to enter each other’s territory.

Agreements to restrict advertising. Restrictions on price
advertising can be illegal if they deprive consumers of important information.
Restrictions on non-price advertising also may be illegal if the evidence shows the
restrictions have anticompetitive effects and lack reasonable business justification. The
FTC recently charged a group of auto dealers with restricting comparative and discount
advertising to the detriment of consumers.

Codes of ethics. A professional code of ethics may be
unlawful if it unreasonably restricts the ways professionals may compete. Several years
ago, for example, the FTC ruled that certain provisions of the American Medical
Association’s code of ethics restricted doctors from participating in alternative
forms of health care delivery, such as managed health care programs, in violation of the
antitrust laws. The case opened the door for greater competition in health care.

Restraints of other business practices. Other kinds of agreements
also can restrict competition. For example:

A large group of Detroit-area auto dealers agreed to restrict their
showroom hours, including closing on Saturdays. The agreement reduced a service that
dealers normally provide -- convenient hours -- and made it difficult for consumers to
comparison shop. The FTC challenged the agreement successfully.
A group of dentists refused to make patients’ X-rays available to
insurance companies. The FTC maintained that the agreement restricted a service to
patients, as well as information that would be relevant to reimbursements. The Supreme
Court upheld the FTC’s ruling.
Proving a violation in these kinds of cases depends largely on proving
the existence of an agreement. An explicit agreement can be demonstrated through direct
evidence -- a document that contains or refers to an agreement, minutes of a meeting that
record an agreement among the attendees, or testimony by a person with knowledge of an
agreement. But an agreement also can be demonstrated by inference -- a combination of
circumstantial evidence, including the fact that competitors had a meeting before they
implemented certain practices, records of telephone calls, and signaling behavior -- when
one company tells another that it intends to raise prices by a certain amount. This
evidence must show that a company’s conduct was more likely the result of an
agreement than a unilateral action.

Vertical agreements between buyers and sellers
Certain kinds of agreements between parties in a buyer-seller relationship,
such as a retailer who buys from a manufacturer, also are illegal. Price-related
agreements are presumed to be violations, but antitrust authorities view most non-price
agreements with less suspicion because many have valid business justifications.

Resale price maintenance agreements. Vertical price-fixing -- an
agreement between a supplier and a dealer that fixes the minimum resale price of a product
-- is a clear-cut antitrust violation. It also is illegal for a manufacturer and retailer
to agree on a minimum resale price.

The antitrust laws, however, give a manufacturer latitude to adopt a
policy regarding a desired level of resale prices and to deal only with retailers who
independently decide to follow that policy. A manufacturer also is permitted to stop
dealing with a retailer who breaches the manufacturer’s resale price maintenance
policy. That is, the manufacturer can adopt the policy on a "take it or leave
it" basis.

Agreements on maximum resale prices are evaluated under the "rule
of reason" standard because in some situations these agreements can benefit consumers
by preventing dealers from charging a non-competitive price.

Non-price agreements between a manufacturer and a dealer.Manufacturer-imposed limitations on how or where a dealer may sell a product, e.g.,
service obligations or territorial limitations, are generally not illegal. These
agreements may result in greater sales efforts and better service in the dealer’s
assigned area, and more competition with other brands. Some non-price restraints may be
anticompetitive. For example, an exclusive dealing arrangement may prevent other
manufacturers from obtaining enough access to sales outlets to be truly competitive. Or it
might be a way for manufacturers to stop competing so hard against each other. Take the
case against the two principal manufacturers of pumps for fire trucks. It involved
agreements that required their customers, the fire truck manufacturers, to buy pumps only
from the manufacturer that was already supplying them. That meant that neither pump
manufacturer had to fear competition from the other.

Tie-in sales. The sale of one product on condition that a
customer purchase a second product, which the customer may not want or can buy elsewhere
at a lower price, is a tie-in. Requirements like these are illegal if they harm
competition. A recent example: The FTC charged a pharmaceutical manufacturer with tying
the sale of clozapine, an antipsychotic drug, to a blood testing and monitoring service.


You don't see Leatherman getting upset about their tools being sold to cheap now do you? There is a very good reason for this and I would suggest that MT and others talk to the lawyers of Leatherman to find out why.

A huge stink can be created if one wants. It would be in the best interest of all parties to work together to a mutual resolve.

I am no longer a Microtech distributor and I will never be one again.

I would not sign their agreement. I sent it to my attorney and he laughed. If anyone enforces the agreement, they too are basically breaking the law according to my attorney. So I could not sign or work with them until they changed the agreement. They have yet to change it and I will not support them anymore. Not to mention a bunch of other issues I have that should not be aired here as it is purely distributor info.
Also a note to all dealers. Your web site is not a form of advertising. It is an extenion of your store and therefor private property. You can do basically whatever you want. Manufacturers can have pricing agreements but they can not force you to sign and the can not enforce a third party agreement when you buy through distribution.

An agreement is not an agreement until you agree
smile.gif


You don't see Leatherman getting upset about their tools being sold to cheap now do you? There is a very good reason for this and I would suggest that MT and others talk to the lawyers of Leatherman to find out why.

A huge stink can be created if one wants. It would be in the best interest of all parties to work together to a mutual resolve.

I am no longer a Microtech distributor and I will never be one again.

I would not sign their agreement. I sent it to my attorney and he laughed. If anyone enforces the agreement, they too are basically breaking the law according to my attorney. So I could not sign or work with them until they changed the agreement. They have yet to change it and I will not support them anymore. Not to mention a bunch of other issues I have that should not be aired here as it is purely distributor info.

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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
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[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 19 December 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 19 December 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 19 December 1999).]
 
Mike,

Sounds like price fixing to me. That is exactly why I sold just about all the MT's I owned. I can't justify continually supporting a company with a pricing policy such as this. Just my opinion, no flames please.
 
My fiancee's Dad is a retired corporate lawyer, and a good one at that. I asked him about this policy and he said it is 100% illegal.

BTW-After Mike posted the large print stuff this became the weirdest looking thread I've ever seen. Well except for the ones with Vampire Gerbil in drag.....damn, why did I have to remember that. "Tell me a story mommy, I'm scared!"

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Paul Davidson

Them:"What's that clipped to your pocket, a beeper?"
Me:"Uuh....yeah, something like that."


 
I have been visiting this forum for a while now , and have recently registered. This thread is really interesting to me as I have had to e-mail for MT prices several times. I have bought 3 Socoms, 1 M-Socom, and a new Halo III. The pricing policy is certainly inconvenient, and at least 1 dealer posts on their website that it is a drag for them also.
That said, I still am more than willing to endure the bother to buy what has quickly become my favorite brand of knives. I am impressed with the quality of design and excellent workmanship that goes into all of the MT products I have seen. They are also the sharpest knife I have ever bought.
The only MT dealer in Pensacola is in a mall and they typically charge 10 to 20% over MSRP for BM and Cold Steel, I can't stand to think what they would charge for MT.
I don't agree with MT's policy, but I do think that that they are well above most all other production makers in design and build quality. I am very reticent @ this point about custom knives, which are typically priced well above MT.
I guess that I am willing to suffer inconvenience and " price fixing" to obtain a superior product.
 
Hahaha...yes, here we go again, indeed.
smile.gif
Well, at least it's an opportunity to prove myself to Spark.
wink.gif
Just don't bring up the old threads...their much too embarassing.
frown.gif


I just wanted to say: Those of you who feel that it's BS, you're not alone. I still think about what Ty S. said a while back about me, or anyone else not EVER being able to purchase a Microtech product at dealer cost...HA! Little does he know. However, I did ditch all my Microtech "junk" and now I've found my true caling in the knife world. Sebenzas, customs, and modified Benchmades.
wink.gif
Anyway, be VERY careful what you say in this thread, because it definately has the potiental to get waaaay out of hand reeeal quick like.

-AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322

- Intelligent men, unfortunately, learn from fools, more often than fools learn from intelligent men.

 
Yeah, I sort of figured I was asking a loaded question. Anyway, I feel that I have enough information to form an opinion now, which is what I was looking for. Thanks!

As for what that opinion is... we probably shouldn't go there, huh?
smile.gif


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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
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