Microtech steels

hanzo hattori said:
Looking for feed back on Microtech’s latest blade steel runs, I’ve recently heard from a few friends that they are running their m390 a bit soft. Are these facts I don’t know since I haven’t tested to hrc. Given this data I’m currently looking at few knives from their line up which are Elmax and 204p and obviously M390. My question is which of these steels would you guys and gals go with and why. Thanks In advanced.
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Ok maybe I am just a suspicous type of guy but you create an account asking for feedback then you get the response your looking for:

Murdamook said:
Running M390 that soft is absolutely pointless. Hinderer is learning this lesson now too, after both Spyderco and Benchmade dealt with it a year or so back. Guys like Outpost76, Supersteel Steve, etc. have done cut tests and soft M390 doesn’t even outperform S30V. So, if the blade steel is at a sub-optimal range for HT, why even use it? What’s the point? There’s dozens of other steels they could have used with high toughness at lower HRC. But taking a highly wear-resistant steel like M390 and running it out of spec is just ridiculous. Chippy or not at that range, you might as well be running S30V.
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hanzo hattori said:
Exactly this is what I’m talking about.
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So what is it your after?
 
HP2114B said:
CATRA isn't real world use, but neither are Youtube cut tests.

M390 is marketed by Bohler for use in plastic injection molds. The two characteristics it's intended to excel in are wear resistance and corrosion resistance. M390 is one of the most highly stainless steels available, superseded only by LC200N, H1, Vanax, etc. Are you saying that knife manufacturers aren't accounting for one of its two primary features? Microtech cites its high corrosion resistance on their steel page, and Larrin discusses it at length on his website.

As far as manufacturers increasing M390 hardness in the past few years, that's a direct response to market pressure from a customer base which is obsessed with edge retention. It has no bearing on what defines a preferential heat treatment from a manufacturing or overall performance standpoint.

S90V greatly outperforms M390 in wear resistance, by something like 150 CATRA cuts at the same hardness according to Larrin's data.
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Is it your contention that M390 set the market ablaze because of its corrosion resistance? Because I’m old enough to remember that the primary feature of the steel that was being ranted about was wear resistance, not corrosion resistance.
 
HP2114B said:
CATRA isn't real world use, but neither are Youtube cut tests.

M390 is marketed by Bohler for use in plastic injection molds. The two characteristics it's intended to excel in are wear resistance and corrosion resistance. M390 is one of the most highly stainless steels available, superseded only by LC200N, H1, Vanax, etc. Are you saying that knife manufacturers aren't accounting for one of its two primary features? Microtech cites its high corrosion resistance on their steel page, and Larrin discusses it at length on his website.

As far as manufacturers increasing M390 hardness in the past few years, that's a direct response to market pressure from a customer base which is obsessed with edge retention. It has no bearing on what defines a preferential heat treatment from a manufacturing or overall performance standpoint.

S90V greatly outperforms M390 in wear resistance, by something like 150 CATRA cuts at the same hardness according to Larrin's data.
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Is it your contention that M390 set the market ablaze because of its corrosion resistance? Because I’m old enough to remember that the primary feature of the steel that was being ranted about was wear resistance, not corrosion resistance.
Paratrooper06 said:
Let me see, whose judgement to go with… guy who has been making high-end production knives for 30 years and has some of the best custom knives you can buy, or generalized remarks from guy on a knife forum claiming that “soft” m390 is equivalent to s30v.. decisions decisions.

Sorry, I’m going with Tony.
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There’s no contention. The data proves that M390 run at lower HRC doesn’t outperform S30V in edge retention tests. Literally no one has argued to the contrary, they’ve just cited toughness and corrosion resistance as a reason for the give and take.
 
Murdamook said:
There’s no contention. The data proves that M390 run at lower HRC doesn’t outperform S30V in edge retention tests. Literally no one has argued to the contrary, they’ve just cited toughness and corrosion resistance as a reason for the give and take.
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That isn’t how it was presented. It was brought up as a comparison to belittle the m390 at low hardness, not to shed light on pros vs. cons, as if out of spite against Tony/Microtech. They don’t just make those sort of decisions by spinning some wheel or throwing darts at a board.
 
Silent H said:
About as often as someone is using it for its max edge retention. You can't claim you want one extreme use case while simultaneously saying another extreme use case is non-existant. Besides, in my experience, corrosion resistance is far more important than edge retention, especially in knives with small nooks and crannies and proprietary hardware that's hard to disassemble and maintain.

As others pointed out, the YouTubers are complaining for clout and views (every YouTuber you mentioned is monetized in some way). I'll err towards trusting the manufacturers who have been making knives for decades over the guy who just wants you to watch his latest "HRC update" video so he can make a little money
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So, your statement is that YouTubers complaining about M390 hardness in monetized videos have something to gain by doing so, so you don’t trust their motivations. Is it your sentiment that a knife company has nothing to gain by using a flavor of the month super steel and saving cash on batches by running it soft? KAI had problems with Elmax that they had to correct and all of the big three routinely fry edges.
 
Paratrooper06 said:
That isn’t how it was presented. It was brought up as a comparison to belittle the m390 at low hardness, not to shed light on pros vs. cons, as if out of spite against Tony/Microtech. They don’t just make those sort of decisions by spinning some wheel or throwing darts at a board.
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You’re tilting at windmills. I have no axe to grind against Microtech. I owned OTFs that I enjoyed very much but let go of because I just didn’t carry them. I stated M390’s edge holding capability at low hardness is comparable to s30v and that I don’t see the point in selecting a steel known for its wear resistance, then running it so soft that you don’t see the benefit. I reread both of my posts and I’m not really sure how you gleaned an attack from what was written.
 
Murdamook said:
So, your statement is that YouTubers complaining about M390 hardness in monetized videos have something to gain by doing so, so you don’t trust their motivations. Is it your sentiment that a knife company has nothing to gain by using a flavor of the month super steel and saving cash on batches by running it soft? KAI had problems with Elmax that they had to correct and all of the big three routinely fry edges.
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Are you seriously making the argument that Microtech lowers the hardness of m390 to save a buck or two? Lol suuuure. Everybody wants to be the next guy to blow the lid off some scandal.
 
Marine53 said:
Ok maybe I am just a suspicous type of guy but you create an account asking for feedback then you get the response your looking for:





So what is it your after?
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I’ve seen data on paper but not real world use reason for this post was to get opinion on the steels real world use and how they hold up? What are other peoples experience? No need to be suspicious, simply looking for feed back. On paper 204p is better as well as M390 but do they heat treat it correctly? Is Elmax going to better in my position for duty carry due to its toughness? What steels do people prefer from this company and how do they perform in real world?
 
Marine53 said:
Ok maybe I am just a suspicous type of guy but you create an account asking for feedback then you get the response your looking for:





So what is it your after?
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I agree with this sentiment at this point. OP was looking for a specific answer. All of the points have been laid to bear.
 
Paratrooper06 said:
Are you seriously making the argument that Microtech lowers the hardness of m390 to save a buck or two? Lol suuuure. Everybody wants to be the next guy to blow the lid off some scandal.
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Who’s “lowering hardness”? There’s no question that it’s more financially beneficial to heat treat at a lower HRC. If a company can produce a knife with a super steel that they know will sell, while also not having to spend the extra cash bumping up HRC or dealing with the potential outcry when their batch chips out, then why not run it at lower levels? Especially when the entirety of the market is doing it anyhow.
 
Paratrooper06 said:
Are you seriously making the argument that Microtech lowers the hardness of m390 to save a buck or two? Lol suuuure. Everybody wants to be the next guy to blow the lid off some scandal.
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It’s also not a “scandal” to run a steel at a lower HRC, regardless of reason. It’s not like MT or other manufacturers are hiding the ball and pretending it’s at a higher HRC.
 
Allow me to make this easier for every one hypothetically speaking I’m giving everyone one knife to for your duty carry it’s a dlc coated shadow scarab two double edge now I’m giving you the option to pick your steel 204p,m390,Elmax?
 
Murdamook said:
There’s no question that it’s more financially beneficial to heat treat at a lower HRC. If a company can produce a knife with a super steel that they know will sell, while also not having to spend the extra cash bumping up HRC
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Would you mind elaborating on this bit?

I'm having trouble getting to "using a higher Rc hardness costs a company more money".
 
Fixall said:
Source?

I'm seeing S90V outperform M390 by 150 cuts in the CATRA test according to Larrin's data.
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I was mistakenly using relative CATRA in that comp, but it’s completely irrelevant, when the discussion isn’t about s90v but M390.
 
Murdamook said:
Is it your contention that M390 set the market ablaze because of its corrosion resistance? Because I’m old enough to remember that the primary feature of the steel that was being ranted about was wear resistance, not corrosion resistance.
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Back in 2011 on the Spyderco official forum, Sal had this to say about M390...

"Our M390 was heat treated at 59-60. It was the "Optimal" hardness for the steel. We also learned that getting the Rc over that is not an easy thing to do. To my knowledge, no production company has made it harder."

It sounds like M390 'set the market ablaze' with the same HRC that Microtech and most other manufacturers currently produce.
 
HP2114B said:
Back in 2011 on the Spyderco official forum, Sal had this to say about M390...

"Our M390 was heat treated at 59-60. It was the "Optimal" hardness for the steel. We also learned that getting the Rc over that is not an easy thing to do. To my knowledge, no production company has made it harder."

It sounds like M390 'set the market ablaze' with the same HRC that Microtech and most other manufacturers currently produce.
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M390 on paper set the market ablaze and caused a mad dash to produce knives in the steel. Once the knives were produced in the steel and the market was saturated enough to allow for cut tests, people were unhappy with the wear resistance not living up to the billed performance. Hence the subsequent drama. Listen, if you want a steel built for wear resistance that doesn’t actually perform better than s30v at the frequent HRC levels achieved, then go for it. If you want to then claim you bought the steel for its stainless quality, that’s fine too. But just admit it outright instead of getting defensive. I am interested in M390 for its edge holding capabilities; not it’s corrosion resistance. I bet a poll would prove that to be the case for most people. Ultimately, I really don’t care past this point. Do what you will.
 
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