Midtechs by Mechforce

[madcap_magician]

I have a real soft spot for American manufacturers doing OEM midtechs, and I want to show off this recent acquisition and generate some discussion about Mechforce.

EDIT: Can always count on this forum to burst a bubble. I guess these are probably only assembled in the US and that the components are often machined in China. What a shame. Still a lovely knife, though.

We all know there's a dozen or more Chinese OEMs, some of them doing absolutely amazing quality OEM work for makers from all over the world. I have every respect for Reate, WE, and the other Chinese manufacturers in terms of their quality of work, but I personally choose not to use luxury money on Chinese- or Russian-made knives, so it gladdens my heart to see American makers competing in the same market.

Mechforce has done midtechs for Jim Skelton, Jon Graham, Peter Carey, and Rick Lala, and this latest one is a midtech of John Barker's Hokkaido. They had previously made a midtech run of the flipper framelock version of the knife, this run is the thumb stud bolster lock version.

I knew these were going to be released and was looking forward to seeing them, but I didn't know we'd get a very small number of really special ones (<20 per John). One-piece Timascus liners/lock/bolsters, Timascus clip, Timascus backspacer, "Black Dunes" FatCarbon scales, and a machine satin MagnaCut that looks almost hand-satin good. There are three other variants - plain titanium with green micarta scales, plain titanium with burgundy micarta scales, and tree bark-textured titanium with "Light" FatCarbon scales.

I dithered too long on whether to get the Timascus one at the one dealer I saw them at, and it sold, but then John got a few samples of each variation and sold them on Instagram and I was fortunate enough to get a second crack at this one.

Just a really excellent knife. Great action, fit and finish on par with the other top-end manufacturers in the $400-$1,000 price range.

 

[Tsujigiri]

I'm pretty sure Mechforce products are just assembled in the USA, the machine work is done in China. They don't make it super clear either way, but I remember digging into this when I was looking at getting one of their Mechtorch lights and finding that they're doing something similar to CKF. FWIW, I did get that Mechtorch eventually and am really happy with the design and quality.

 

[kreole]

I'm pretty sure Mechforce products are just assembled in the USA, the machine work is done in China. They don't make it super clear either way, but I remember digging into this when I was looking at getting one of their Mechtorch lights and finding that they're doing something similar to CKF. FWIW, I did get that Mechtorch eventually and am really happy with the design and quality.

Website seems to say as much. Clicking on the John Barker Hokkaido:

Partially Made in Pennsylvania, USA


So then not made in the USA

 

[The True North]

Assembled in the USA.

Pass.

 

[argyle1812]

Link? Not seeing any on the site

 

[madcap_magician]

Well, thanks, guys.

 

[Biochemdawg]

the knife looks good. The name has always thrown me off and was surprised to hear they’re assembled in USA. I’ve never handled one but may get a chance some day! Appreciate the insight

 

[madcap_magician]

the knife looks good. The name has always thrown me off and was surprised to hear they’re assembled in USA. I’ve never handled one but may get a chance some day! Appreciate the insight

Same, it's an unfortunately gas-station-y sort of name, but I think it's because they were a machine shop making all sorts of things before they branched into making knives as well.

The quality is really excellent. I had been hoping to see real American OEMs to compete with Reate.

 

[mitchnola]

I’ve always found it disappointing when a company doesn’t clearly state where or how their knives are being made. I’m not a fan of overseas knives but they’re clearly here to stay. But when companies want to sell those knives in that $400+ price point really bothers me because then they’re directly competing with 100% USA made knives like Hinderer, crk etc.

I still can’t understand how anyone could spend that much on an overseas knife especially when considering what the profit margin may be or even more so that you could be buying an excellent knife made here in good ole US of A!

 

[madcap_magician]

I’ve always found it disappointing when a company doesn’t clearly state where or how their knives are being made. I’m not a fan of overseas knives but they’re clearly here to stay. But when companies want to sell those knives in that $400+ price point really bothers me because then they’re directly competing with 100% USA made knives like Hinderer, crk etc.

I still can’t understand how anyone could spend that much on an overseas knife especially when considering what the profit margin may be or even more so that you could be buying an excellent knife made here in good ole US of A!

I legit thought this was made in the USA. It is still a very nicely made knife, so I guess I still have a really nice knife.

There are great knives in the US, it's true. I have Hinderers and CRKs and Les Georges. I have Oz and MachineWise and Koenig.

Just nobody in the US doing Reate-level OEM work for custom collaborators. I've wanted a Barker Hokkaido for years and could never justify $2,500 on a custom even if I could find one. A really nice $950 midtech I could do. If I'd known it wasn't made in the US, I would have gotten a Herman or an Arno Bernard. Not made in the US, but honest folks making stuff in their own countries.

 

[mitchnola]

I legit thought this was made in the USA. It is still a very nicely made knife, so I guess I still have a really nice knife.

There are great knives in the US, it's true. I have Hinderers and CRKs and Les Georges. I have Oz and MachineWise and Koenig.

Just nobody in the US doing Reate-level OEM work for custom collaborators. I've wanted a Barker Hokkaido for years and could never justify $2,500 on a custom even if I could find one. A really nice $950 midtech I could do. If I'd known it wasn't made in the US, I would have gotten a Herman or an Arno Bernard. Not made in the US, but honest folks making stuff in their own countries.

I get it but if I had bought that knife thinking it was a 100% USA made and then found out it wasn’t I would be very disappointed and definitely returning it. I’d also have some choice words for the maker for not being clear about their production methods.

I know your tastes and judgement of quality is as solid as it gets. I don’t question the quality of these knives being made over there. I just choose not to support them because at the end of the day it’s not fair competition and I fully believe the larger companies like We and Reate are absolutely looking to take over the American market to the point that they’re making everybody’s knives.

 

[madcap_magician]

I get it but if I had bought that knife thinking it was a 100% USA made and then found out it wasn’t I would be very disappointed and definitely returning it. I’d also have some choice words for the maker for not being clear about their production methods.

I know your tastes and judgement of quality is as solid as it gets. I don’t question the quality of these knives being made over there. I just choose not to support them because at the end of the day it’s not fair competition and I fully believe the larger companies like We and Reate are absolutely looking to take over the American market to the point that they’re making everybody’s knives.

Unfortunately I got it from John directly and not from a dealer with a clear return policy. I will reach out to him, though.

Generally (UNLIKE MY WIFE... ) I'm not big on returning things that aren't defective, I will usually chalk it up to poor impulse control or failure to do due diligence on my part.

 

[The True North]

It's not about quality to me, it's about [redacted] and the fact that [redacted].

 

[mitchnola]

Unfortunately I got it from John directly and not from a dealer with a clear return policy. I will reach out to him, though.

Generally (UNLIKE MY WIFE... ) I'm not big on returning things that aren't defective, I will usually chalk it up to poor impulse control or failure to do due diligence on my part.

Well, at the end of the day if ya really like the knife maybe keeping it isn’t all bad. It’ll just be that one sneaky bastid that was smooth enough to slide in ya pocket under misleading pretenses. We’ve all been fooled or guilty of it once or twice in our lives.

 

[madcap_magician]

It's not about quality to me, it's about [redacted] and the fact that [redacted].

I know, sometimes [redacted] just kind of [redacted] for [redacted], right?

Well, at the end of the day if ya really like the knife maybe keeping it isn’t all bad. It’ll just be that one sneaky bastid that was smooth enough to slide in ya pocket under misleading pretenses. We’ve all been fooled or guilty of it once or twice in our lives.

Well... if he won't take it as a return, I might try and sell it on Facebook where they're big on Chinese-made knives, and if I succeed, then I get to order another new knife, so I'd get the unboxing experience twice for the same money hahahaha

 

[el gigantor]

The name has always thrown me off..

Same! For some reason, it sounds like they manufacture monster trucks to me.

 

[mitchnola]

I know, sometimes [redacted] just kind of [redacted] for [redacted], right?


Well... if he won't take it as a return, I might try and sell it on Facebook where they're big on Chinese-made knives, and if I succeed, then I get to order another new knife, so I'd get the unboxing experience twice for the same money hahahaha

Now that’s the healthy rational of a knife nut!

 

[Tsujigiri]

I’ve always found it disappointing when a company doesn’t clearly state where or how their knives are being made. I’m not a fan of overseas knives but they’re clearly here to stay. But when companies want to sell those knives in that $400+ price point really bothers me because then they’re directly competing with 100% USA made knives like Hinderer, crk etc.

I still can’t understand how anyone could spend that much on an overseas knife especially when considering what the profit margin may be or even more so that you could be buying an excellent knife made here in good ole US of A!

Ha, I do this exact kind of calculation, too; I have a hard time buying something I like when I know that it's way overpriced for what it is.

High-end Chinese knives, however, justify their prices. The best of them tend to be made in a way that you absolutely wouldn't find on an American knife at a similar price, or sometimes any price. The best ones tend to be really heavy on time-intensive machining procedures like contouring and blending, features that require small tools, chamfering, etc. They also often have parts that need to mesh together in more complicated ways, or parts that are difficult to fixture and require more custom setups.

I think Chinese manufacturers tend to be machinists who found a market in knives, whereas American brands are usually knifemakers who tried to scale up with CNC machines, and it shows. Many of the high-end American brands make their knives on bottom-of-the-barrel Haas machines and never get into automation or anything that could make them more efficient.

Also, there's a lot more competition in the Chinese market, many brands and many models being introduced. If someone can offer more features for the price, buyers quickly flock to that brand. It's a cutthroat market and a race to the bottom that ultimately is to the benefit of the collector. American brands, on the other hand, tend to be more personality-driven. They can get away with offering less for the money if they have a popular name and a compelling story.

All this to say, the profit margins on American-made knives are actually likely much higher than on Chinese knives. It doesn't stop me from buying American, but it is something that sticks in the back of my mind. My work brings me to a wide variety of manufacturing environments, and you'd be amazed at how good the knife guys have it compared to aerospace, medical, defense, etc.

 

[mitchnola]

Ha, I do this exact kind of calculation, too; I have a hard time buying something I like when I know that it's way overpriced for what it is.

High-end Chinese knives, however, justify their prices. The best of them tend to be made in a way that you absolutely wouldn't find on an American knife at a similar price, or sometimes any price. The best ones tend to be really heavy on time-intensive machining procedures like contouring and blending, features that require small tools, chamfering, etc. They also often have parts that need to mesh together in more complicated ways, or parts that are difficult to fixture and require more custom setups.

I think Chinese manufacturers tend to be machinists who found a market in knives, whereas American brands are usually knifemakers who tried to scale up with CNC machines, and it shows. Many of the high-end American brands make their knives on bottom-of-the-barrel Haas machines and never get into automation or anything that could make them more efficient.

Also, there's a lot more competition in the Chinese market, many brands and many models being introduced. If someone can offer more features for the price, buyers quickly flock to that brand. It's a cutthroat market and a race to the bottom that ultimately is to the benefit of the collector. American brands, on the other hand, tend to be more personality-driven. They can get away with offering less for the money if they have a popular name and a compelling story.

All this to say, the profit margins on American-made knives are actually likely much higher than on Chinese knives. It doesn't stop me from buying American, but it is something that sticks in the back of my mind. My work brings me to a wide variety of manufacturing environments, and you'd be amazed at how good the knife guys have it compared to aerospace, medical, defense, etc.

I don’t really disagree with much of what you’re saying. But I severely doubt American makers have higher profit margins. If that’s the case there wouldn’t be a reason to outsource.

When considering a lot of the materials also come from China (world’s largest supplier of titanium) leads me to believe they’re cost on materials is a small percentage to what American makers are paying for the same stuff. For example you can get a chinese made all ti knife for a $100 proves it. That’s how they’re able to undercut the American market by making knives with high end components that sell for 1/2 the price of similar American made knives.

And as you mentioned, their manufacturing capabilities far exceed ours. So they can pump out thousands compared to our hundreds. Which volume because of efficiency always lower the cost

And finally there’s the difference in the cost of labor.

Of course I could be wrong. It would be nice to know what the profit margins actually are.

Also, that’s an excellent point you made of machinist making knives vs knife makers machining to make knives. Something Ive never considered.

 

[Tsujigiri]

I don’t really disagree with much of what you’re saying. But I severely doubt American makers have higher profit margins. If that’s the case there wouldn’t be a reason to outsource.

When considering a lot of the materials also come from China (world’s largest supplier of titanium) leads me to believe they’re cost on materials is a small percentage to what American makers are paying for the same stuff. For example you can get a chinese made all ti knife for a $100 proves it. That’s how they’re able to undercut the American market by making knives with high end components that sell for 1/2 the price of similar American made knives.

And as you mentioned, their manufacturing capabilities far exceed ours. So they can pump out thousands compared to our hundreds. Which volume because of efficiency always lower the cost

And finally there’s the difference in the cost of labor.

Of course I could be wrong. It would be nice to know what the profit margins actually are.

Also, that’s an excellent point you made of machinist making knives vs knife makers machining to make knives. Something Ive never considered.

I've mostly seen American companies outsource if it's a design that has some of those more difficult features, or they're chasing the very bottom segment of the market. Materials are certainly far less expensive in China, that's an issue in every industry. Actually, materials is kind of an issue of connections and leverage. You can get reasonably-priced materials, but you need to be placing orders in massive quantities or the big Chinese mills won't even pick up the phone.

The point I'm making with American knife manufacturers is more that the profit margins are SO high that they don't feel the need to put much thought and effort into being more efficient. I've seen videos of Chinese knife factories, and they really aren't set up as high-efficiency volume producers at all. It's just the most basic operator-loading-VMC formula, but it's competitive because they're going up against American knifemakers that are still stuck in the stone age. If knife companies here felt the push to be more efficient like American machine shops in other industries, they could bypass the higher labor costs. Even something as basic as improving your spindle utilization with a twin pallet VMC can make a big difference. Implementing a cobot system would improve significantly on that, and a palletized horizontal is an even bigger jump up from there. But in my experience, these guys are so much more profitable than shops that need to compete for weapons contracts that streamlining the operation isn't a priority.