MIG welding to make San Mai?

Knifemaker87

Knifemaker87

Joined
Jan 2, 2006
Messages
1,073
hey everybody

got a quick question here
can i used my mig wleder to weld 1095 on either side of a bar of W1? i have no idea how to make san mai... but can i use the MIG welding to keep the pieces from ozxidizing? if i can do that... do i need to flux it?

thanks!
~Chris
 
Not a good idea, and why 1095 and W-1 if you check the certs I think you will find they are VERY similar.
Del
 
Yes you can do it that way. Basically if you can seal out the oxygen there will be no need for flux.
I wonder if you will get very much contrast with 1095 and W1? Usually two more dissimilar metals are used such as mild steel, nickel or damascus. Interesting, go for it and report back here.
 
Chris,
San mai is just a three layer billet (or more, sometimes).
You use the harder core material for sharpness, and a softer side material for strength and flexibility. You wouldn't use 1095 and W-2 ,since they are basically the same. You might use 1050 and W-2. You layer the three bars and forge weld them together. Then you forge out the blade, drawing it out as needed. Originally, san mai was a way to conserve scarce high carbon steel by sandwiching it between lower quality metal.
Stacy
 
Hey Chris-


Dry welding is very effective.

You'll want to run a bead all the way around the edges though. For something simple like carbon steels I wouldn't bother. Because you'll have to grind all of the weld off after you forge weld the layers and before you forge or cut/grind out your blade.

I agree with Delbert on the mix. W1 and 1095 are very similar. Something like a 52100 core with wrought iron sides makes for a very pretty blade. Burt Foster has gotten a handle on welding a carbon core with 416 sides. That's the epitome of what you would want in a san mai blade (IMHO).
 
what yall say makes sense... i figure i will get hit for this... but what about useing some of that steel you get at Lowes as the "sides"?

the reason i was asking.. was i bought some W1.. but it looks smaller than what i want it... but i have some 1095.. so i thought i could "beef it up" just a thought.

what is 52100? or 416?

thanks!
~Chris
 
52100 is a 1% carbon steel used in bearings. It makes great knives, but the HT is very specific. 416 is an inexpensive, machinable stainless steel.
Stacy
 
Ed Fowler has been working on getting 52100 down pat for many years. While he is considered the Guru of 52100, he still hasn't totally mastered it (I think Ed will agree with this statement). The forging of 52100 requires staying within a fairly exact temperature range. Below 2100F and above 1700F. It needs to be properly annealed, normalized, spheroidized, all at the right points in the birth of the blade. Austenitization temp should be exact ,1555F, and the atmosphere should be controlled. A well regulated HT oven or a salt pot is required. Cryo immediately after a snap temper at 200F or do a regular temper at 345-450F. Retemper after cryo.
Specs are:
Forge 1700-2100F
Normalize 1625-1650F
Anneal is a bit complicated, but start with 1450F
Austenitize at 1555F
Temper 2-3 tempers at 340-450; or snap temper at 200F and cyro at-105F and two tempers at 340-450F
As quenched hardness HRC 62-66 (as you can see, it varies depending on the parameters)

You can read Ed's comments in Blade magazine, his great books, and on this forum. Ed was commenting today about 52100 and cryo on the cryo thread.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=488230

Stacy
 
bladsmth said:
Ed Fowler has been working on getting 52100 down pat for many years. While he is considered the Guru of 52100, he still hasn't totally mastered it (I think Ed will agree with this statement). The forging of 52100 requires staying within a fairly exact temperature range. Below 2100F and above 1700F. It needs to be properly annealed, normalized, spheroidized, all at the right points in the birth of the blade. Austenitization temp should be exact ,1555F, and the atmosphere should be controlled. A well regulated HT oven or a salt pot is required. Cryo immediately after a snap temper at 200F or do a regular temper at 345-450F. Retemper after cryo.
Specs are:
Forge 1700-2100F
Normalize 1625-1650F
Anneal is a bit complicated, but start with 1450F
Austenitize at 1555F
Temper 2-3 tempers at 340-450; or snap temper at 200F and cyro at-105F and two tempers at 340-450F
As quenched hardness HRC 62-66 (as you can see, it varies depending on the parameters)

You can read Ed's comments in Blade magazine, his great books, and on this forum. Ed was commenting today about 52100 and cryo on the cryo thread.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=488230

Stacy
Click to expand...

Good job on hitting the high-lites of Eds lifetime achievements on 52100. He has volumes written on the subject.
 
okay... i am going to post this in a new thread as well...
but i have some 304 stainless.. can i do the same thing? the spec sheet says that 304 has good weldability.. can i do san mai with 304 stainless and W1?
is that all i do?
weld it together with a Mig welder.. then bring it up to welding temp (which would be what?) then hammer it out?
thanks!
~Chris
 
Try to avoid Forge welding with Stainless until you have a lot of experience. If you do you will need to dry weld and I would put it in a box rather than weld the seams. The high chromium content will cause problems. It can be done but the control needs to be very precise. The steel you get from Lowes is just mild steel. It would work for a san mai outer with the W-1 core. There would not be much contrast since they are both simple carbon.
 
Chris, You are missing the point. Your MIG welder is fro making weld joints, not for laminating "welded" steel layers. Yes, 304 and W-1 can be welded together. No you can't do it with your equipment. You will need special ovens and a hydraulic press.
Stacy
 
okay that works...
well i guess i will have to wait to try that one out. i am prolly going to try i with that mild steel from lowes if i do it at all. we shall see.
thanks!
~chris
 
Here is a related question on something I have been thinking of. Lets say I take a piece of 1/8" 5160 and profile it, Then I take and run some short diagonal stringers with 7018 then between the 7018 stringers lay down some 309 stringers . I don't weld at all on the 1/4" of the blank that will be the edge. Then I normalize and anneal the blank then grind out the blade and edge temper. Would I not have a blade with a 5160 core and sides laced with stainless and carbon. A dip in ferric chloride would darken the carbon. I was also thinking about taking some 5160 and machining or grinding in grooves or a pattern and then filling the grooves with 309 or some chrome rod before annealing and grinding. I realize the groove pattern would loose some definition with the penetration of the weld. Just thinking why not play with it. comments
 
Stacey and Bruce -- WOAH guys, my forging temps for 52100 are 1625 f, down to when it quits moving. Temps over 1,750 will grow grain and you lose the benefits you could have had through forging.

After forging aneals are now at 900 f.

Some very poor communication happend somewhere along the line, if I caused it I apologise.

Like you said we keep learning all the time, the dvd - knife talk vol 1 has a lot of information in it, the big lessons now are why and what if we change the method.
 
Thanks Ed.
I was sure you would add your vast experience with 52100 here.
I was giving the ASM specs for 52100. I know you have formed a special set of temps and procedures from experimentation - specifically related to blades.

One question:
About using 900F for an anneal, is that more of a high temper cycle?
I would figure the hardness as being about HRC40 at that temp for 3-4 hours.
Or are you bring it to Ac and lowering it to 900F in order to form pearlite?
Stacy
 
The 900 degree temper is used only after the forging and normalizing cycles.
I give the blades three 2 hour tempering cycles, 24 hours apart for 52100 with time in the house hold freezer between heats. In a room temp Paragon, set it to go to 900 f in two hours, hold for 2 hours and let it cool down to room temp in the oven.

The 24 hour wait between cycles in not necessairy with 5160.

An inadvertet experiment during our last seminar: I thought I was using 5160 but after the 900 degree temper, grinding, hardening, final tempering I etched the blade, it was 52100. The blade performed vey well, but on the multiple 90 degree flexes it developed an s curve in the blade, rather than flexing in one area.

The time between thermal cycles seems to be a significant variable, especially in 52100.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top