Military Knife Question

[Danke42]

I seem to remember Sir R F Burton complaining about bayonets made to double as swords or saws or lord knows what else, instead of being designed for use as bayonets.

Goes back to the end of 1800s. Muskets vs. Rifles. When rifling began to take hold barrels got shorter and a Rifleman became disadvantaged with less reach. So they went to longer blades.

If you ever come across a Commonwealth Rifle Regiment on parade the command still used is "Fix Swords". They were the hinge point of the change from bright uniforms and tactics that beat Napoleon to dark green uniforms and much smaller unit hit and run tactics and accurate aimed fire vs volleys.

 

[Jolipapa]

I guess the dismounted bayonet was in some way unsuitable for knife fighting?
I wonder if someone at headquarters owned stock in Couvreux?

The use of the bayonets was intended with the rifle's weight helping to penetrate the poor guy in front.

I don't think they had any interest, just plain disrepect for the poor men in the mud. French (British as well) senior officers had absolutely no idea of what the life was like on the front.

How long was the bayonet? Some of the WWI vintages were practically short swords. 18" is a lot inside a trench, at the end of your arm. That paratroopers gear picture has a knuckleduster trench knife under the .45, in addition to the 'chute knife, bayonet, and machete. When I was a kid I played with walkie-talkies just like that, from a surplus store.
Thanks, Neal

The French bayonet (WW1) was 518mm (#20" 3/8) long and cruciform (unlike the British or German) and could not be used by hand unless heavily moddded. For the hand to hand they used trench knives or were allowed to use the very efficient Vengeur (avenger) when they could afford to buy one.

Jolipapa, The SCOF is interesting as it has a stainless steel blade, but all the other tools are carbon steel. I seem to remember seeing a photo of one being carried in Indochina by a French soldier, but cannot remember in which book? I also have a civilian sale version of a French combination knife with an Olive Drab body, lock blade, can opener, a detachable fork and spoon, and there all important corkscrew! I bought it at a knife show in Finland of all places. In 1965 at the SF Camp at Trang Sup, near TayNinh the orange handle pilot's knife was issued and for about two weeks all you heard was the blade being opened. After that it was normally thrown into a footlocker and forgotten as said above it was not much of a knife, and people went back to using their Demo knife. John

The SCOF was also available in dummy stag.

I suppose you think of this one, the second Tatoo, (rare in blue for the airforce). There's still a lot available at surplus stores.

 

[screened porch]

Goes back to the end of 1800s. Muskets vs. Rifles. When rifling began to take hold barrels got shorter and a Rifleman became disadvantaged with less reach. So they went to longer blades.

If you ever come across a Commonwealth Rifle Regiment on parade the command still used is "Fix Swords". They were the hinge point of the change from bright uniforms and tactics that beat Napoleon to dark green uniforms and much smaller unit hit and run tactics and accurate aimed fire vs volleys.

I'll be darned.

 

[screened porch]

WWI still makes me furious. You'd think I'd been killed there myself.
My sister has a French bayonet of the yatagan type, which is what I was thinking of. Long, but sharpenable and graspable. But duh, a socket bayonet would be a different story.

 

[Jolipapa]

WWI still makes me furious. You'd think I'd been killed there myself.

So would I also probably. Unless you're a cutler as they've all been demobbed in 1915 in order to build those knives.

 

[zzyzzogeton]

How long was the bayonet? Some of the WWI vintages were practically short swords. 18" is a lot inside a trench, at the end of your arm. That paratroopers gear picture has a knuckleduster trench knife under the .45, in addition to the 'chute knife, bayonet, and machete. When I was a kid I played with walkie-talkies just like that, from a surplus store.
Thanks, Neal

The Lebel bayonet was 25" OAL 20.5" cruciform blade - totally unsuited for hand to hand combat, opening rations, opening anything other than punching a hole in something. Many were cut down to a 16ish inch blade, but would have still been worthless in h-to-h.

The long bayonet blades of the late 1800s/pre-WW1 era were a holdover from the muzzle loading days where bayonets on muskets/rifles were pike replacements for withstanding cavalry charges. The passing of cavalry for anything other than scouting came about with the development of bolt action/magazine fed rifles and machine guns. WW1 still saw a bunch of infantry charges where a longer "bladed pole arm" would have been more useful over a shorter package, except for the same machine guns and rifles. Lots of men on both sides died charging machine gun emplacements that were backed up by grenades and rifles. Generals have always fought the last war.


edit - oops. didn't see that there was a next page of comments that said the same thing.

 

[TonySal]

Still not mine alas, the Airborne Commando (and sometime French Airforce pilot) knife. Made by SCOF, length 24cm (9" 1/2).

and another FAF knife by Durinox

the "Tatoo" (not allocated but sold in every soldier's shop - this is a civilian):

and since 2010 the new allocated:

I have that stainless Dironox, needs a good cleaning... what do you all think? Worth carry? Stick to SAK? Put it away with my other oldies?

 

[TonySal]

I served in the Coast Guard for 20 years. They did not issue knives in general, but if you worked on deck and handled lines it was good practice to have a good sharp knife. Sheath knives weren't allowed but folders were ok. I carried a Buck 110. However if a knife was need as a tool they were available. I have several electrician's knives from my service.

I have a K-Bar from WWII that was a Navy issued knife (it's in pretty bad shape so I won't post a pic.) That I bought at an estate sale, and I recently found a Army issue utility knife made by Camillus in 1981.

Generally speaking these are good knives for the purpose intended. I am sure there are better ones on the civilian market ( like the Buck 110) but they will serve (pun intended).

Electricians were ok as were that SS one with US, like a SAK, sailir knife was cheap and I gifted it. A 110 or 112 carrier also! The survival knives wpuld open and stab your hand unless the guy before stole it, orange, push button seemed cool.
Me 1976 to 1997, Boatswain Mate.