Military question

C

CDR

Joined
Jan 17, 2007
Messages
32
Hi,

I'm brand new to this forum and just purchased a Military model Spyderco yesterday and am awaiting its arrival. I noticed in my state laws regarding knives that gravity knives are considered illegal as are blades of 4 inches or greater. Is the Military technically considered a gravity knife as I'm not sure what the criteria are other than the ability to open it via centrifugal force and it locks itself. Does the fact that a release has to be pressed first disqualify it as a gravity knife? I'm not even sure how one would release the blade with this model so any assistance in explaining if the Military qualifies or how the blade would be released using centrifugal force only would be helpful. Also, do laws mean over 4 inches are illegal and exactly 4 inches are OK?

Thanks.
 
Others will have a better explaination of the law, but the Military is not a gravity knife. As I understand it, a gravity knife opens by the force of gravity on the blade after a button is pressed. Also, the Mil. will probably not be able to be opened from full closed by just a flip of the wrist. A least mine cannot be.
 
As far as length is concerned, look at the wording of the law. Does it say "over, exceeding, etc?" Technically mosy spydies can be gravity knives, based on how well you can flick them open. I can open most of mine fifteen different ways using centrifugal force. Keep the pivot tight and you should be ok, just dont gravity open it infront of sheeple who can call the police on you.

Hope this was of help, SS
 
In my experience the wording of the law matters less than case law in your jurisdiction. I have been told that some courts consider Spyderco's switchblades when we all know they aren't. I would suggest talking to a well stocked gun and knife shop in your area unless you know an police officer to talk to. A concealed carry instructer might also be a good choice.
 
Interestingly, I checked New York State law and the only reference to blade size was a case law precedent that established blades of 15 to 18 inches as being dangerous. No other State reference of blade size restriction exists with the exception of New York City only, where a restriction of knives that are "4 inches or greater" applies. The New York State gravity knife definition refers to "any knife that can be released from its handle by use of gravity or centrifugal force and then lock upon opening by either a button, spring, lever or other device." One interesting case law determination found that a knife that was able to be opened by centrifugal force but required an additional step to lock the blade in place was NOT considered a gravity knife.

So I believe the Military is exactly 4 inches in length, is this correct? If so, it would not be carriable in New York City as "4 inches or greater" would disqualify it in my mind. The remainder of New York State is OK, however. The issue in question is whether this knife is truly a gravity knife or not? Does a lock release have to be pressed in order to flick the knife open with centrifugal force or can one do it without having to engage any release. Perhaps an added step to first release the blade from its locked position prior to using centrifugal force could disqualify it as "gravity knife." Is there anyone else in New York State that can shed some light on their personal findings or experiences? Or anyone who can confirm the exact length of the Military blade?

Thanks
 
StarStorm said:
As far as length is concerned, look at the wording of the law. Does it say "over, exceeding, etc?" Technically mosy spydies can be gravity knives, based on how well you can flick them open. I can open most of mine fifteen different ways using centrifugal force. Keep the pivot tight and you should be ok, just dont gravity open it infront of sheeple who can call the police on you.

Hope this was of help, SS
Click to expand...


StarStorm,

Of the knives that you mentioned that you can open using centrifugal force, does it include a Military model?

Thanks.
 
Carrying a Military in NYC would probably be ill advised due to its 4" blade length. Similar laws limting blade length to under 4" exist in Albany, Monroe (Rochester), and Eire (Buffalo) counties. There may also be additional counties with similar restrictions, I know my county has none. In addition, any knife carried anywhere in New York State must be concealed, so clipped carry with any portion of the knife visible is not legal.

The Military is a liner lock, you do not need to push a button, or do anything else other than place your thumb against the round hole opener and move it in an arcing motion. You only need to release the blade from the locked postion in order to close it. As for the gravity knife issue, it is not a gravity knife per-se under New York law, but if the pivot on one is loosened sufficiently to allow it to be opened "with a casual flick of the wrist, as if dealing cards" while holding the handle, then that particular Military would be considered one if you were stopped while carrying it.
 
The Deacon said:
Carrying a Military in NYC would probably be ill advised due to its 4" blade length. Similar laws limting blade length to under 4" exist in Albany, Monroe (Rochester), and Eire (Buffalo) counties. There may also be additional counties with similar restrictions, I know my county has none. In addition, any knife carried anywhere in New York State must be concealed, so clipped carry with any portion of the knife visible is not legal.

The Military is a liner lock, you do not need to push a button, or do anything else other than place your thumb against the round hole opener and move it in an arcing motion. You only need to release the blade from the locked postion in order to close it. As for the gravity knife issue, it is not a gravity knife per-se under New York law, but if the pivot on one is loosened sufficiently to allow it to be opened "with a casual flick of the wrist, as if dealing cards" while holding the handle, then that particular Military would be considered one if you were stopped while carrying it.
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Hi,

Thank you for your detailed response, I appreciate it. I looked back in the New York State knife laws and can't seem to find any reference to the concealed carry requirement you mentioned. Can you direct me to where this is stated as I had planned to use the clip on the Military for daily carry. Thanks also on clarifying the gravity knife issue as it relates to the Military model. I also have to remember to bring a smaller knife when traveling to NYC given the city's 4 inch rule.

Thanks again.
 
Always bear in mind that the laws are enforced by officers on the street, not the courts. Also remember that said officers may or may not know what the law states. It would be further recommended to recall that even if they DO know what it says, they may not know what that means, or for that matter, they may not care.

You would be much safer to assume that if they can see it at all, they will see it as a threat to themselves. If they can get the blade to deploy without touching it, they will probably call it a gravity knife and confiscate it. The fact that it is not one will not get it back, either.

If you want a knife for NYC, buy 5 Byrd Flights instead of one Military. It will save you some money, the blade length is under 4 inches, and it will take five times as long to get them all taken away.
 
CDR said:
Hi,

I'm brand new to this forum and just purchased a Military model Spyderco yesterday and am awaiting its arrival. I noticed in my state laws regarding knives that gravity knives are considered illegal as are blades of 4 inches or greater. Is the Military technically considered a gravity knife as I'm not sure what the criteria are other than the ability to open it via centrifugal force and it locks itself. Does the fact that a release has to be pressed first disqualify it as a gravity knife? I'm not even sure how one would release the blade with this model so any assistance in explaining if the Military qualifies or how the blade would be released using centrifugal force only would be helpful. Also, do laws mean over 4 inches are illegal and exactly 4 inches are OK?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

Cops generally aren't gun people nor are they knife people. One handed openers are generally grouped into a category called a gravity knife. Technically this is incorrect (theoretically, when the Switchblade act went into effect, it banned all one handed openers (and in many places, balisongs) as they were automatics or bonified gravity knives...Spyderco was the first mass production knife company to make a legal, one handed opener starting with the C01 Worker) but unless you want to battle in court, the actual law doesn't really matter as on the street, as the officer has the right to make the call. The Military is a great knife, and an intimidating knife as well. That can help or hurt one depending on the situation.

Centrifugal force is a topic when applied to knife laws that causes those majoring in physics to have a minor stroke. The wrist flick is just this...a wrist flick. Most NKPs will use the arm and not be able to successfully open the knife without touching the blade. It requires manipulating the knife so that the force of the blade swings away from the handle to open. I watch people (and police) struggle with knives that are very easy to open and look like complete idiots. As said, a tighter pivot will make it almost impossible for others to open other than yourself. This does not legally justify a gravity knife as it is using momentum and it can be opened when facing upward in that the force of gravity would be working against the knife...bonified gravity knives use (you guessed it), gravity and do not need to be moved at all as the gravity is the opening mechanism of the blade. Once again, logic plays no real role in this and it becomes a (generally) uneducated LEO's call.

Four inches in a folding knife is a big blade. Some urban jurisdictions say under 4 inches, some so called 'Nazi' cities will do far less. While the cutting area of the blade is less than 4 inches and this can hold up in court, it likely will not on the street. Additionally, going by the law the knife is not a dirk or dagger, as it is single bladed. With that said, many rural areas and especially those where blue collared work is prevalent generally do not care as a big utility blade as often seen as a necessity. The Military rides low in the pocket and until pulled does not appear to be a large blade. It is not a good knife to use in a metropolitan area.

As always, I give people the same advice if they use knives around stupid people. Whether they are side open automatics, assisted openers, gentlemen's pocket knives, manual openers, balisongs, etc...ALWAYS OPEN THEM 2 HANDED! (unless in a SD situation or a situation that calls for immediate usage). A slow two handed opening makes less sound and looks much less threatening.
 
The Deacon said:
In addition, any knife carried anywhere in New York State must be concealed, so clipped carry with any portion of the knife visible is not legal.

.
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:confused: Not according to the State Troopers, town Cops or Sheriffs I've asked, via telephone and personally. :confused:

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong! :confused: :o
 
BlackNinja said:
:confused: Not according to the State Troopers, town Cops or Sheriffs I've asked, via telephone and personally. :confused:

Maybe I'm reading your post wrong! :confused: :o
Click to expand...
No, you read my post correctly, although that statement probably should have contained a qualifier or two.

I don't have a copy of, or exact reference number for, the law in question. Can tell you it is not knife-related per-se, but covers any object carried "in plain sight" that a "reasonable person" may be perceive as being a threat. Now perhaps I'm over-reacting to the implications of that, but at the very least it creates a fairly broad grey area that prudent people may wish to avoid entering. Granted, in most places it would be far more likely to be used to get someone a cop felt was up to no good off the street, or to defuse a potentially volatile situation, than against someone just quietly walking down the street. Know I will continue to carry mine so they cannot be seen to avoid any possibility of a misunderstanding.
 
I have not been able to find any reference whatsoever to concealed carry requirements in the New York State knife laws. Also, from a practical viewpoint, is it really threatening to most people to expose an inch or less of the top end of a pocket knife in your front pocket? Given the specificity of New York State knife laws and listed case rulings on interpreting various definitions, etc. I would have thought a concealed requirement would have been explicitly put forth and right at the top of the list, but it is not. I have a New York State concealed carry permit for my pistols and believe me, it is very clear with respect to all aspects of this requirement. I would think that it would be equally as clear if this requirement existed with pocket knives. Living in a very rural community, I don't have the scrutinity that one would have in NYC, but I personally can't see the locals being all hot and bothered because they can view a pocket clip and a bit of a pocket knife protruding from a pocket. That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

Thanks
 
CDR said:
That's just my opinion for what it's worth.

Thanks
Click to expand...
It's worth just as much, or as little, as mine. When push comes to shove, the opinions of the arresting officer, the DA, the judge, and possbily the jury, are all that matter.

If you live in an area like I do, or one even more rural, then you are probably 100% correct. But, since you asked about NYC rules and gave no indication of where you lived or where you might visit in your regular travels, and appeared to be anxious to avoid the possibility of legal issues, I felt it was worth mentioning. For whatever little it's worth, my information came from a friendly social conversation with an ADA and a Police Lt. from a metropolitan area near where I live.

Also keep in mind that the "test" for a gravity knife that I mentioned, and the ones you mentioned in your initial post are precedent. To establish those precedents someone had to be arrested, charged, and tried. I can think of better ways to spend my time.
 
Hi Deacon,

I agree with you completely. I appreciate your perspective because, as we know, perception is reality. So if you happen to think that wearing a pocket knife with a clip could be perceived as being threatening, then so might someone else. Perhaps that someone else could be an officer of the law. I think that common sense in all things we do plays a critical role in determining how we live our lives. I also believe the wording of the knife laws in New York State places the odds firmly on our side with respect to pocket carry since no explicit requirement of concealed carry exists. I understand and agree with your point of view that this doesn't help convince an officer who is unaware of the law's precise verbiage and just avoiding the possibility of wearing a clipped on pocket knife is easier. I also believe, however, that the average law abiding citizen who is minding is own business wouldn't be stopped by a police officer simply because this officer sees a pocket knife clip in one's pocket. You would have to give the officer a reason to gain his attention in the first place.

In my case, dressing in a suit or sports jacket or khackis/jeans and a sweater while wearing a pocket knife clipped to the inside of my pants pocket will probably be seen as little or no threat to anyone I encounter. This would certainly be in contrast to someone in combat like form of dress who could create a perception, perhaps incorrectly, of being an aggressive type that may have bad intentions. Again, perception is reality, however truly prejudicial that may be. We just need to apply some common sense.

With respect to my previous NYC question specifically, it simply stemmed from wanting to be cautious and making sure that the Military model Spyderco I ordered satisfies legal requirements given that only NYC has the 4" or greater restriction written in their knife laws. The gravity knife question I think is now moot following the very thoughtful responses provided by the nice folks on this forum. I certainly won't be loosening the pivot on my Military knife anytime soon as I want to abide by the law. The length issue is certainly a restriction that is real and would require a different model for visits to Manhattan. Besides, it gives me a great excuse to buy another knife.

Again Deacon, thanks for your perspective and to everyone else who clarified these questions.
 
CDR said:
Hi,

I'm brand new to this forum and just purchased a Military model Spyderco yesterday and am awaiting its arrival. I noticed in my state laws regarding knives that gravity knives are considered illegal as are blades of 4 inches or greater.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

What state are you in? Check the following link for general knife laws (and remember it's a summary .. not the actual law):

http://www.thehighroad.org/library/blades/knifelaws.html

I'm a retired Alabama State Trooper and our knife law refers to "bowie knife or knife of like kind" as being illegal to carry concealed. That's it. If it's a "big un" and fixed blade, don't carry it concealed.

Like several others have mentioned, lots of police officers (they ain't cops) don't really know the knife laws as well as they should. Here in Alabama, we're more worried about guns. Any fool who brings a knife to a gun fight etc., etc.

In NYC, in the past, uniformed, on duty, traveling on official business, out of state police officers were subject to being arrested for carrying a firearm. The federal goverment (thank you George Bush !!) finally passed a law allowing active and retired law enforcement officers to CC firearms (with official department yearly re-training). We had an officer in NYC (officially) who was arrested when he used his pistol to stop a mugging (this was 20-25 years ago). They confiscated his gun and it took the governor to get him out of jail. Therefore, throw out the book on NYC.

Excuse the ramblings, haven't had enough coffee to be completely co-herrent this morning.
 
Hi CDR,

Welcome to the Spyderco forum and thanx for visitin'.

The Military is a large knife and appears as a large knife when seen. It was designed to be used where size restrictions were not a considertion. I carry a Military quite a bit when out in the "bush" or just working outside (moving snow, cutting wood, etc.), but when I'm in an urban area, I will generally carry a smaller knife.

I think it is important to pay attention to local laws regarding knives, which are different from street to street it seems. When I,m travelling overseas, I usually carry a non locking model, or a small folding locker.

Keep in mind that a smaller sharp knife cuts just as well as a larger one.

sal
 
Hi Sal and Lamarrk,

Thanks to both of you gentlemen for your thoughtful responses. The knife law link is an excellent state by state summary and I have made sure to save it to my hard drive. I had been able to read the quite lengthy knife laws of New York State and determined that the Military is good for daily carry in the entire state, as I don't use drugs of any sort, which is one of their explicit criterion for determining if a carried knife is considered illegal. The one exception, as you very clearly point out Lamarrk, is NYC....all bets are off there. However, after one ploughs through all the legal details and case law precedent, it essentially comes down to having to be conscious of blade length when travelling to NYC. The Military, having a 4" blade length, is a no no in NYC. The remainder of New York State is fine, just not NYC. The law states that a blade length of "4" or greater" is not permitted. So I am now in the market for a slightly smaller knife for NYC trips. Naturally, automatics are prohibitted throughout the entire state, regardless of length or drug habits.

The knife law chart you provided Lamarrk is really an excellent summary, thank you, and it also includes the important case precedents determined for each state. I was able to find those precedents listed in your chart that apply to New York State and they are correct. One point, it states 4" in the column under the heading "Blade Length Limits". This could be a little confusing as a 4" blade limit actually exceeds NYC law given the precise wording which restricts, "4 inches or greater". Certainly, it is important to do one's homework before carrying a knife in unchartered waters. Good point Sal when travelling abroad. Places like England don't take kindly to nail clippers let alone Military model Spydercos.

Lamarrk, I appreciate your perspective being a retired Alabama State trooper and agree with everything you said about NYC and gun carry. I have many friends in the NYPD as well as retired NYPD and find their gun law restrictions to be as far off base as possible. Retired NYPD officers can't even carry in NYC without department approval. These are the good guys, as are your Alabama troopers, who are assisting officers in NYC...so they arrest them when they should be commending them. What they and every other anti-gun activist group doesn't comprehend, is that the people who are law abiding citizens, who take the time to be finger printed (and pay $99 for the privilege by the way when criminals have it done for free), take an 8 hour gun safety training course (about $75), have an FBI and state background check performed, have 4 non-relatives who must reside in the same county as you write references for you and have each reference notorized, have photographs taken ($20) and apply for a CCW license ($15) are not the problem. These people are law abiding. These are the people NYC does not permit to carry a firearm. Meanwhile the bad guys, who by definition have absolutely no intent on abiding by any law whatsoever, will continue to procure illegal guns, carry them, and use them against defenseless citizens. The good law abiding citizen, who has just been scrutinized for four months, beyond all reasonable limits and passed this scrutiny, is restricted and not allowed to protect himself from the punks and scum of the earth who could care less about human life. I just don't get it and never will.

My CCW is valid anywhere in the State of New York as well as 14 other states. However, if I am carrying a pistol while driving into or through NYC, I have to pull over before entering NYC and remove my pistol and make sure it is locked in a box in my trunk with the ammunition locked in a separate location. I suddenly have ceased to become a law abiding citizen in NYC? Someone please enlighten me.

Thanks for bearing with my diatribe but I find the argument exhausting and frustrating to say the least. I'd love to hear other's viewpoints on this issue as New York is not alone in these ludicrous gun laws.

As an addendum, I just wanted to point out that crime statistics have proven that cities and states that have these restrictive gun laws actually experience higher crime rates than those that allow concealed carry. I see it as elementary that bad guys know that in concealed carry states there is a possibility that they may select the wrong law abiding citizen to perform a criminal attack. This unknown factor puts doubt in the criminals' mind and acts as a deterrent. Conversely, in those cities and states where it is clear that the honest, law abiding citizen has no chance to arm his or her self that the bad guy has no fear element facing him and will boldly proceed with his intended crime.

Thanks.
 
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