Mill & Drill machine; which one should I buy?

[peter nap]

I have mixed feelings on the overseas stuff. To be honest, I feel like it is made to be tough. The fit and finish is not up to snuff but the major work is tougher in a lot of cases, than the made in the USA items. With the mill, The fit and finish is important though.
The real consideration though is cost. Cheap stuff from overseas is cheap stuff. Cheap stuff from the USA is cheap stuff. You can't buy a good, new mill for $500.00. You get ...cheap stuff.

I don't like Mill Drills. I've looked aver Harbor Freights pretty carefully and found that the bearing assembly in their heavier drill presses, seem to be very close to that on their mill/drills. One of the major differences should be in the bearing assembly and it's not.
With that in mind, you would be money ahead to but one of their drill presses and add a cross slide. That would still be less than satisfactory but would be a cheaper lesson.

 

[jhiggins]

I've heard this same sentiment on these boards many times, but I found out the other day that Chuck Rogers, one of the best 1911 gunsmiths in the world, uses a made in Taiwan version of a Bridgeport. He's been doing this for many years, and is arguably one of the most proficiant machinists out there, and he claims that the Taiwan version is better (not to mention cheaper) than the American made.

I have zero experience in these matters but I thought it worth noting...

.

Find out what brand it is and I'll go look at one. Tai stuff was starting to become as good as Japanese machines buy late 1990s. Then Taiwan companies started charging more for their goods and importers began looking for cheaper sources, i.e. China. When Jet tools were made in Taiwan, the earlier machines were junk - much like the Chinese ones are now. Then Jet began to get higher and higher in quality. Now it seems the bulk of Jet machinery is made in China now. Its a never-ending cycle of greed, and the end-user is the one to take it in the behind. I have a shop full of Pacific Rim junk, and although I can turn out nice work with it, I will NEVER admit its better than US or Euro-made. NEVER!

Put the two side-by-side and you'll see there is a world of difference in fit, finish, and yes... tolerances. Bottom line is that a quality machine costs so very much because every piece that goes into it costs a lot to produce.

Ugh! Sorry for ranting, but cheap foriegn machinery has cost this country thousands of jobs, and American craftsmen are suffering because of it.

Try to find a new American-made drillpress for less than $1500.

 

[Mike Hull]

................ Now it seems the bulk of Jet machinery is made in China now. Its a never-ending cycle of greed, and the end-user is the one to take it in the behind. I have a shop full of Pacific Rim junk, and although I can turn out nice work with it, I will NEVER admit its better than US or Euro-made. NEVER!
............

It's not so much greed, althought you can't blame the company's for making a profit, after all, that's what they are in business for.

What it really amounts to is market price. The distributors know how much they can sell X milling machine for, and when Taiwanese company Y raises the price several hundred dollars, company Z, the distributor will quit buying them because they can't sell that mill for that higher price. So, they have to shop around for some company that can fill that particular price notch for that particulat mill, for the amount of money that allows him to sell, and still remain competitive, while still turning a profit.

Where the greed comes in is the buyers. That's us! We determine what some machine will sell for. If they ask too much, we won't buy it.

It's sad about the American machinery company's, but if anything, they screwed themselves. They were the greedy ones who kept all the profits and never invested in tooling that would allow them to make a better product without so many man hours involved, ie;cad/cam, etc.
On top of that, the prices they charged was astronomical compared to the rest of the world, and proves again that we determine the price of products.

Most Americans just couldn't afford the price of a new Bridgeport, or equal.

That old song about auctions is great, but for every person looking for that used Bridgeport, etc., at some outrageously low price, only 1% find that mythical machine at a price that he/she can afford.

A good Asian (read HF, Enco, etc.)knee mill, or even the heavier duty mill/drills will work wonderfully for most people, but others criticize those and recommend American made mills costing 5-10X more. Some people must be made of money.

One can get an Asian milling machine that will do many things, but IMO, they are not the ones for $200-500.

 

[fitzo]

Remember when Japan took over manufacture of the little umbrella thingies for fruit-booze drinks? Everything they made was crap. Then Taiwan got the honors, and then Korea. Gradually, they stepped up their quality to the point that nowadays Japan makes some of the finer powertools in the world and Taiwan turns out some pretty decent stuff at times.

China, IMO, on the other hand, is who holds the current "umbrella-thingy" crown! :barf: Plus, their foreign minister said some really NASTY things about the USA right before the election. Screw them!

Someone wants a good commentary of Chinese mainland versus Taiwanese mills from Grizzly, give Ron Duncan a call.

Sorry, mi amigo Senor Hull, for posting this vitriol right after you!

 

[Mike Hull]

That's OK Mike. . Again, we will determine that market too. If their products are that bad, people will stop buying them, forcing them to get better, like the Taiwanese, and the Japanese did before them.

I can't comment on the quality of prc machinery though, as I've never owned, or used any.

 

[Tom Anderson]

I think the old addage applies: "You get what you pay for."

If it were me (and believe me - it has been many times), I'd save up to buy something you know should work. Too many people try to hurry up and save money by buying the cheapest thing they can find and end up with a shop full of junk, wishing they had at least one decent machine.

If your shop space is limited (like mine is - I have to drag everything down steps to get it into my shop), I'd recommend one of the 1 1/2 or 2 HP mill/drills that accepts R8 tooling from MSC, ENCO, etc. I've had mine for about 20 years and it's taken just about everything I've thrown at it. They're accurate and sturdy enough from the start, and you can buy a lot of different accessories to "hot rod" them up, too!

 

[Trick]

I buy American whenever I can. So much so I had extra money several times for over two years and did not buy a griz grinder till I had enough money to buy a Coote. Wish I had enough to buy a KMG, but, you can only spend what you can afford. I want a KMG so bad I can taste it, but I can only want for now.

But where I am getting at, someone show me a link to an American made mill that is smaller than a bridgeport, larger than a taig or sherline and single phase. It ain't happening. Some people don't have the room for a bridgeport. Some have the room and not enough money. Buying a used bridgeport that is wore out will cost you more money to fix than buying new chinese junk. Anyone priced ballscrews lately? Then you get the guys that hand scrape the ways on wore out equipment to get high dollar for junk. You can't buy used American stuff on the net by pictures and know even 50% what you are getting into. If it is a bargain, it is worth a chance I suppose and I would jump if it was a good price. But like the Chinese stuff, it is a chance you take. Except you got no warranty to fall back on. Sure, guys have had nightmares returning machines till they got a good one. But I haven't heard of anyone not getting a replacement. And here is a fact that no-one has mentioned. If he would get a mini mill (not the micro some ebay sellers sell and call the mini trying to scam people) if he uses it a year and ends up buying bigger, he will get at least 75% of his money back. They are in high demand and bring high dollars used on ebay. It is not money down the drain. Maybe an amount of frustration does have a high price. But most of these little chinese pieces of crap can and do make some awesome things in capable hands.

With that all being said, I am getting ready to post a link to some bridgeports selling cheap.

Rob Frink, if you read this, you can corner the market if you start making American made benchtop milling machines directed to the knifemaking and gunsmithing community. I know you can do it, just don't know how many millions it would take to get set up to produce them.

 

[Trick]

Find out what brand it is and I'll go look at one. Tai stuff was starting to become as good as Japanese machines buy late 1990s.

I think Rong Fu (RF) is the only Taiwan made mill now. They used to make the grizzly and others but they all switched to China. The Rong Fu's are supposed to be the best and are waaaay higher.

 

[J. MacDonald]

I had a Rutland Tool branded Rong Fu RF-30, the predecessor to the RF-31. It was enough machine to really get me hooked on real metalworking again after 20 years away. Then I sold it and bought a $1400.00 Bridgeport. If I were going to buy a mill drill, I wouldn't buy a round column again. Having a knee or at least a dovetailed head as some mill/drills have makes a lot of things a lot easier. My Bridgeport wasn't that much more than a new Mill Drill and while it could use (and will get) some fine tuning, it's so much easier for me to work on. Some guys turn out nice work with mill/drills, Tom Anderson is certainly one, but I like the larger machine. I always felt like I was fighting with my Rong Fu. I got to inspect the BP under power before purchase. The head's not too beat up and the ways are in good shape, so it's doing decent work already. You could certainly look for a small Clausing or Rockwell vertical mill. Some of the Rockwells even had R8 spindles, X axis table feeds and power feed on the quill for boring. Awesome little hobby machines. They take up no more floor space than a mill drill on a stand and if they're not worn out, they're much nicer machines. I've seen a few for under a grand.

Good luck in your search.

John