Mill "requirements"

B

BradleySmall

Joined
Mar 6, 2022
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Okay, if you thought I was a cheap b*d before, now that I have committed almost $6K to a belt grinder and HT oven ... just wait :)

So, I assume it is possible that one would need some kind of mill, be it, micro (Proxxon 70), mini (Little Machine Shop), Bridgeport... who knows what?

If I am focusing primarily on folders (starting with slip-joints, and going as far as I can up the line... )

What tasks truly lend themselves to a mill or heaven forbid a lathe? Are there reasonable alternatives to the process?
Which size/type of mill is minimally "Necessary", or can everything be done reasonably in some other way?

I do have a drill press, and a cheap x-y table for it. However, last I tried, I was not able to tolerate any horizontal pressure on it without the quill spitting out the MT2 like an unexpected piece of broccoli from a 2 year old's mouth. I have considered torching the quill and setting the MT2 in there with a little mallet persuasion, or even buying a cheap second DP and some super-glue.

Other than the discussion about liner relief, or bushing creation, I am not quite sure what the requirement for a mill is. I have not purchased "Slipjoints My Way" because of the review comments that suggests Robinson heavily relies on such things as a vertical mill, and "complete machine shop".

There is nothing like the right tool for the job, and bigger is always better, and more powerful is far better than less powerful, and more tools definitely helps one win the game by dying with the most amount of toys.

All that said, what are people getting away with? In a perfect world, I would want a full sized vertical mill with all the accouterments as well as full sized metal lathe similarly accessorized as well. That is definitely not happening, not only due to money, but also space.

Can I just get away with turning up, my existing DP, and x-y table? Simply replacing the x-y table. Or perhaps there is something I can do involving my wood lathe? Can I get away with one of the tiny (Like Proxxon 70) mills, or do I need at least a mini like the LMS, or HF?

BTW, if your answer is going to be something like "Just spend the money..." or "Gotta spend it to make it..." or something similar, I already know that particular answer.
 
I am not familiar with what all goes into making a slipjoint knife, but I make liner locks and frame locks. I purchased a Little Machine Shop 3990 and it does all that I need it to. Do I wish it were a bit bigger/heavier, definitely yes! But it didn't break the bank and does all that I need it to. It does have a 3 axis DRO, which I think is critical to get those tolerances that I am after. Be prepared that tooling will cost more than the mill in some cases.
 
Fwiw, I got the little machine shop high torque mini mill. I actually got it mostly for drilling and “machining” wood pieces with flat and parallel (and repeatable thicknesses) for scales and sections for wa handles. That said, I have used it on occasion for metal (mild steel, annealed carbon steel, and aluminum). While it technically works for those …. I believe I am definitely seeing its limits re rigidity when working on steel (vibration, quickly dulling mills, surface not as clean as I believe it should be…). Then again, I have not used carbide endmills, which might help a lot. So you might be able to get away with this class of mill … but if you want repeatable, low stress milling on steel, likely will be best to heed Hoss’s advice for getting the biggest your space and budget will allow..
 
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Stop screwing up the drill press.


I've typed out good replies at least five times.

Mini mill, not HF, try Precision matthews or others
Get one where the head moves up and down, but keeps it's position - not a round column

R8, not Morse or BS tapers
 
I have a small-ish (~100 Kg) table top mill and I am very happy with it. While I would of course like to have a bigger, sturdier machine, I have also heard the opinion that the mill should match the size of your parts. Millling small parts on a bigger machine may cause you to lose the "feel" for what is going on with the business end - I'm not a machinist, I'm just paraphrasing what I heard, but it makes sense to me (others may correct me). What I'm trying to say is bigger may be better, but for smaller work a table top machine can do a lot for you. that proxxon 70 looks VERY small though - I would not consider that. Personally I use my mill and lathe (also a table top minilathe) more for making tooling and fixtures rather than actual knives, so consider that. And as usual the tooling will set you back quite a bit - you will need endmills, flycutter, edgefinder, jacobs chuck, set of parallels... So plan for that too (not by lowering the budget for the mill, but by increasing the overall budget of course:).
 
You can always do small work on a big machine, but never big work on a small machine. A full sized mill doesn't take up nearly as much "extra" space as you might think, once you factor in things like the workbench or stand that your smaller mill is going to be sitting on anyway. Not sure where you're located, or what the current machinery market is like, but around here, you used to be able to find a decent used knee mill for not a whole lot more than you'd pay for a new benchtop setup. If you're lucky, it may come with vises, tooling, and/or other accessories. If it's 3 phase (which they usually are) you can run it with a $75 chinese VFD. Granted, getting the thing and moving the thing is a whole other ball of wax... ;)

All that said, to answer your question another way: Any mill is better than no mill, and no mill is better than trying to use a drill press. :D Plenty of guys get away with the little machines, though almost everybody likely wishes theirs were bigger at some point.

Whatever you end up with, plan on spending at least as much on tooling and accessories before you even get started.
 
you can probably do it all with hand files if you're determined enough

if you do get a benchtop mill take the time to build a very solid stand for it, it makes a huge difference
 
As I have said elsewhere, there is no need to have a mill for making folders.
 
Here I am trying some more to talk myself out of it. I
i cleaned and tuned up the drill press. Then I used my crappy Pittsburgh 4" vice, and some random carriage bolts, finger tightened, I dressed off 2" of some kind of chrome steel 3/8" rod with a file, and center drilled it to 1/4". It wasn't perfect, but everything wasn't tightened down either, and there is no V in the vice. Lowest thickness is 042 and highest was 069. I was off by 0.0125. I think I could blame that on any number of things, including not tightening everything down, or the crappy vice.

I think I can drill a relatively straight hole without a milling machine.

What is the next task that requires a mill over a drill press for knife making?

Do I really need a mill?

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I use my mini mill for milling liner reliefs for slip joints as well as precise hole for birds eye shadow pattern at the pivot and milling the scale for the shield.
 
Plenty of guys make folders without a mill. Plenty make knives without a belt grinder.
If I had to start over again tomorrow, the first tool I'd try to get would be a belt grinder. The second would probably the largest mill I could find. 3rd would be a good metal cutting bandsaw.

It's not that I need anything of those tools to make anything, they just make things a whole lot easier, and a little more enjoyable.

Now, if I could only use a drill press, I'd definitely invest in some v-blocks, a decent vise, some quality drill bits (including centering drills) and reamers, and a chuck with minimal runout. If I absolutely had to mill with it, or side load the spindle, I'd make sure to take as light of a cut as I could stand. A little loctite on the chuck taper might be a good idea too... :D
 
Jesse Latham said:
Instead of asking us to convince you or justify a tool purchase perhaps you should just make some folders and decide for yourself the level of expense needed to get where you want to go. Come back after you make some and ask how to eliminate the issues you find.
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Thanks! Although I do regard this response as un-helpful, I still appreciate your desire to contribute to the conversation at hand. Unfortunately, you have not described any processes you use that require a mill, nor any processes you accomplish without a mill that others depend on the mill for. But fortunately, you have "put me in my place", informing me that asking questions about things is unnecessary, and inappropriate until I have "paid my dues". I really appreciate that, because it will help me to not get too big for my breaches.
 
My Mini mill died on the weekend.
It died while working on a big order I have to finish. Looked around to ordering and all were out of stock, except Harbor Freight.
I need a mill now.

I placed an order on Saturday and it is arriving today, Wednesday.

So I look forward to getting another 25 years out of this one as well.
Can't really complain. I paid $400 25 years ago for it and the new one is $800.
That one little mill paid for itself hundreds of times over.
 
Drew Riley said:
Now, if I could only use a drill press, I'd definitely invest in some v-blocks, a decent vise, some quality drill bits (including centering drills) and reamers, and a chuck with minimal runout. If I absolutely had to mill with it, or side load the spindle, I'd make sure to take as light of a cut as I could stand. A little loctite on the chuck taper might be a good idea too... :D
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This seems to be the position I am in.

The AmeriBrade Mastry Package is "in the works" they seem to have a bit of a back-log. I already got my band saw, (well portable, but it has a stand and proper table so there's that. )

At this point the mill is off the table. I don't see any reason to simply get the small one that I could possibly afford, and be left wanting some larger one for stability or other features. The majority of my work in planning will be classic folders, eventually moving into more complicated ones, and finally into practical utility blades such as for wood carving, or kitchen usage.

I took the time to do the cleanup and re-tuning the DP. The concentric attempt gave me confidence that it can do 90+% what I intend on doing.

I started rebuilding my x-y vise table. It has a decent brass gibs, but only 3 screws per gib for adjustment. I have finally gotten them adjusted to where I can not feel or see any extraneous motion. I just got a new dial indicator, and plan on setting it up next to determine how well I did. In addition I will see how bad the runout on my chuck is. Although judging by my concentric attempt on the rod (1/4 inside 3/8) I am fairly confident it is minimal.
As for the fixed vice, there is little to adjust, but I need to determine how flat and parallel it is. So far, based on previous usages, it seems to be pretty flat and perpendicular to the bit/chuck.

I hadn't thought of any V-blocks, but did consider that I should have some v-faces for the vice jaws. But have yet to get any. I am also not really concerned with side cutting for the moment. And, if so, I think I would be looking towards 2-point support of the piece. I am still considering adding a MT0 live center to the table itself.

Thanks for the advice.
 
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