Milsurp warhorses of history- K98, M38, K31

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What was it like to face the screaming Russian hordes, 8mm Mauser in hand, shivering with cold, or could it be- fear?

What was it like to charge the hated invader of the Motherland, to drive him out of the burned villages and ruined cities, back to where he came from, with 7.62x54 vengeance in hand and righteous hatred in heart?

No longer would the warhorses of history charge by before me in the pages of Shotgun News.

With C&R and CC in hand, I didn't waste any time. Christmas was coming.
___________________________________________

The K31 is the best of the three. Haven't shot any of them yet, but it is the slickest, neatest piece of military machinery- the good things they say about them are true. I have an absolute tiger-striped beech beauty here. Sights are a fine front blade- can see how these 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds happen for other people. I hope MY eyes are that good. Laying in a stock of the fine RUAG 7.5x55 ammo, and Hornady and IMDEL on order. Will reload these... .308 (well, .307) bore, an easy reload. It's never fired corrosive, the Swiss didn't use in these.

Ah. The Mauser. Actually mine's a Yugo 98/48A, near as I can tell. Hard putting a pedigree to these things. I don't need an expensive German one to get the look & feel of shooting a K98 (can't afford everything), made on German machinery post-war, this one looks like one and may be unfired. Nice clean bore, laminate stock. Planning on reloading 8mm for mild range loads. .323 bore, I like the ballistic coefficient- nice change from the 7.62's I shoot.

Mosin-Nagant M38. Trying to see why so many people have & shoot the M38's & M44's.... it's, well, crude compared to the other two. Like a hammer or plier to a micrometer.... maybe that's the idea of it. Can see leaving in the back of a car or getting it wet. For what they cost, not much at risk ($89). Made in 1942, have to figure if it's a Tula or Izzy. Cheap ammo. This one also seems unfired. The wood holds some promise- no dings- solid, not laminate. Good choice for a canoe trip! :eek: :D

So if I'm not sharking khukuris lately... it's cause I'm broke. :foot:

Going to subscribe to Shotgun News. I bet many of you get it...

History is at hand.



Mike
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oh crap. I need to buy another gunsafe.
 
If you buy your 8mm on stripper clips you can save them for reuse.

Any round with the same head size, 8X57, 30-06, 308 will work on it just fine. I use them to carry ammo for my scout rifle, using a stripper is much faster than handloading.

There is something about that last sentence....

Anyway..

I bought a mauser cause I had so much 8mm lying around. Terrible isnt' it?
 
The K31 will outshoot the other two. If it doesn't, something is wrong with it. (I'm serious.) You'll find the RUAG "service grade" ammo to be comparable with what we consider match grade around here. It is very good stuff.

It was an unfired Yugo M48 that exploded in my face, leaving me with a three month flinch and a permanent powder tattoo. I haven't fired one since. I blame the ammo for this particular instance, but it kind of killed the Mauser bug for me. I didn't get far enough through that box of ammo to find out how accurate it was.

I'm a M-N man at heart. They're ugly, they're clunky, they're completely unrefined, and they're nearly foolproof. I picked up a 1943 Tula 91/30 recently as a project rifle. (Moderate pitting, good rifling, rough exterior.) It's had the serial number restruck at least once and has been rearsenalled I don't know how many times, at least two or three. There are marks on it that I simply can't interpret. What stories this one could tell...

Be sure to check out the Yugo SKS's as well. Not so much history behind them, but they're inexpensive to own, inexpensive to feed, accurate (by SKS standards, anyway) and are very well built.
 
I know nothing about the milsurp rifles but I have heard my entire life how good the Mausers are.
Seems that they set the standard in 1881 and it is still one of the best if not the best.
I Googled 8 X 57 Mauser and found a lot of good info, especially interesting to me was this site. It answered several questions I had.
I wonder why it didn't become all that popular in the US compared to like the 30-06?
And since it was brought out in 1881 was it a black powder round to begin with?
 
You guys are giving me the serious jones for a milsurp bolt action. We've got a gunshow locally Jan 7th & 8th. If I go for a Swiss K31, what should I be looking for? Are there variants that are better? I see that they were made untill the late 50's. Newer or older rifles better? Any guidance appreciated.

Darn, and I was saving my money for the Antique arms show in Timonium MD in March. :o

Steve
 
Steve, I have a few links:

http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/schmidt_rubin.html

gives you manufacturing dates... But I will say this: They (K31s) were originally made in walnut, then switched to beech. So the oldest ones would be walnut. But I have seen walnut beauties with litle wear (1935-made), and some beech (a 1950-made) with a lot of wear.... YMMV.

If you get one, grab the RUAG GP11 ammo while you can- it was made late 70's, and while expensive Hornady can be reloaded, this stuff is great. I think it will run out. Berdan primed, but I'm gonna try reloading it. $18.96/60 at militarygunsupply.com, $25-30/60 elsewhere. Strippers can be had at Tennesee Gun Parts, they're metal & cardboard, 12/$20 I think.

Good news: Wolf is going to be making 7.5x55 Swiss! Their "Gold" line line of reloadable brass shell ammo is coming, hopefully soon. CheaperThanDirt has it as "out-of-stock" on their site, but listed.

The bayonet for this rifle is expensive! and rare. AIM has it for $89. Have seen for $135. Is said to cost more than the rifle. Good shot here:

http://www.courter.org/guns/rifles/k31.html

Best Reloading link:
http://www.swissrifles.com/ammo/reload1.htm

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-42.html

Also see SwissRifles.com


Hope this helps.

Oh, yeah. Get one! They are expected to go up in price when dealers run out. Indications are that bottom of stocks are in sight.

Possibly a good investment...


:D


Mike
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Yvsa, American factory 8mm loads are weaker/loaded down due to the thinking (of lawyers) that you might have an old GEW 98 Mauser (with a .311 bore, takes less pressure too) and drop a hot .323 8mm load in it....


and Satori, what the H___ happened? Turkish ammo? Mauser has a bolt gas deflection thing that may have saved your eyesight... Man, you were lucky/unlucky...let me know more, please, before I head to the range....

Also, since you like the M-N's, what's up with the feeding on this thing? Bolt won't close on a round sometimes... is it like the Mauser's "controlled feeding" thing?... the rimmed round is throwing me here... :confused: :( :confused:

Just did it again- fed from the mag, and bolt wouldn't quite close...

JUST HOW IN THE NAME OF MOTHER RUSSIA DOES THE COMISSAR EXPECT ME TO DEFEND THE RODINA WITH THIS THING!?!

Ah. Extractor is very stiff, it seems... made in '42, this thing can't be new, so must be re-arsenaled... new parts must break in.
 
Dave Rishar said:
I'm a M-N man at heart. They're ugly, they're clunky, they're completely unrefined, and they're nearly foolproof. I picked up a 1943 Tula 91/30 recently as a project rifle. (Moderate pitting, good rifling, rough exterior.) It's had the serial number restruck at least once and has been rearsenalled I don't know how many times, at least two or three. There are marks on it that I simply can't interpret. What stories this one could tell...

Be sure to check out the Yugo SKS's as well. Not so much history behind them, but they're inexpensive to own, inexpensive to feed, accurate (by SKS standards, anyway) and are very well built.
Click to expand...


I'm with you. I am considering a K31 but one of the reasons I own old guns is they are fun to shoot and the Swiss ammo is more expen$ive.

I like carbines and despite the crudeness of some of them I really like the size and sight picture on the M38 and 44. I haven't shot the 44 yet but the 38 shoots pretty good. The ammo is super cheap for these guns. Of course about 20 rounds a session is my limit. Not only the recoil but I want to be kind to my neighbors;) My wife calls the Howitzers cause the windows rattle when you shoot them.

I totally agree with the SKS reccomendation. I have had a Russian for years and finally got a Yugo M59, and had Kivarri do trigger jobs on both. You can't imagine how much that improves the groups:thumbup: Also have an Albanian on the way and may buy a 59/66 too. For sure the M59 Yugo is the best shooting. Also the SKS is a bit quieter and MUCH less recoil than the MN's so I usually shoot about 40 rounds at a session. Plus you can get 1000 rounds of ammo for less than 100 bucks!!:thumbup: :)
 
The SKS is a great knockabout rifle. The ball pein hammer of the third world. :D

Glad I have a Norinco SKS, they were $109-140 back in the... early ninteys?

Worth more now, they're supposed to be better. Would like a Yugo too, the milsurp market is such they just might go away like the Chinese SKS & AK's did.

HD & Dave, I'm looking forward to the M38/7.62x54 fireball. :eek: :thumbup:

Might reload some milder loads in 7.62x54 but with the cost, may not be worth it. Never will I reload 7.62x39... or .223.


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I could never bring myself to buy a Chinese one, but they are some of the best I think. (sks)

I figure eventually they will again limit the importation of SKS's so stock up now:thumbup: :)
 
Some Mosin Nagants have "sticky bolt syndrome" . My M38 is hard to open sometimes after shooting some types of ammo. No problem w/ the Czech Silvertips.

Here's a couple cool pix I found. ( didn't take them)

FireBall.jpg


20051222161010_fireball20degan.jpg
 
More links not to visit:

http://www.swissrifles.com
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com
http://www.mosinnagant.net

A lot of Nagants seem to be fairly stiff and clunky in operation. Some folks tell me that this isn't supposed to be the case. I'm still waiting to see a significant number of them that aren't. The sticky bolt syndrome has a couple of causes; most commonly, it's petrified grease in the chamber. I use engine degreaser and a stiff plastic brush to get the stuff out.

The magazines can be problematic...after all, they're feeding rimmed rounds. The M1891 wasn't a bad idea in 1891 but it's been giving Russian arms designers fits ever since. The ejector retains the top cartridge in the magazine IIRC and if it's stiff, you'll have a hell of a time getting them in and out. One of my M38's was notoriously bad about this. Try removing it, thoroughly cleaning it and the slot it resides in. I wound up having to bend that one just a little bit to improve loading but I don't recommend this. (At least, not if you don't have a spare on hand.) When loading cartridges, I try to push each one backwards as I insert it. I don't recall the rims interfering with one another as the rounds stack in the magazine (and I'm too lazy to check right now) but this seems to help me. If the rounds are feeding incorrectly and interfering with the bolt that's one thing, but make sure that it's not the bolt itself. As I'm sure that you've noticed, the bolt head (with the locking lugs) is interchangeable and not serial numbered. The Russians were known to swap these around quite a bit. Just because a M-N has all matching numbers doesn't mean that it has the bolt head that it was built with - in fact, chances are that it doesn't. As this piece affects both headspacing and locking lug engagement it's pretty damned critical in my eyes and should not be swapped around. It gets even scarier if you compare bolt heads from several different rifles...they are visibly different on some of mine.

You know how they always say to have the rifle checked by a competent gunsmith? Hint, hint. ;) Have the headspacing checked at a bare minimum. I also recommend marking up the lugs with some layout dye and turning the bolt a few times to check engagement. After several hundred rounds, I realized that one of my M38's (all matching, no forced matches, excellent condition, arsenal refurb) is barely engaging on one lug. It doesn't get shot anymore.

I've been keeping my eyes peeled for the Wolf 7.5mm, more for brass than anything. When I've seen them for sale, they cost more than the RUAG stuff does. I don't know how it compares with it in terms of accuracy. I hear that it's simply rebranded Partizan so it shouldn't be bad. I will be surprised if it shoots up to the GP-11 though.

Most important thing to look for in a K31, IMNSHO? Check the bore. The Swiss didn't use corrosive ammo in these so there's no excuse for frosting or pitting. If the bore's clean, the rifling is sharp, and the muzzle crown looks good, go for it. Both of mine are pretty much missing the bluing entirely from all the metal surfaces above the stock; underneath, they look great, telling me that they were cleaned frequently but not abused. As far as I can tell the Swiss normally used a pull-through for cleaning the bores (and I would assume that they worked from the breech end) so I'd be surprised to see an "overcleaned" bore. Assuming that there's no obvious damage to the rest of it, it should be fine.

Now, about that M48...

I picked up a box of some kind of milsurp stuff at the gun show. I couldn't read the writing and didn't even know the country of origin, but I recall that it came in a pale blue box. I couldn't identify the headstamps. The only number that I could find on it was 1955 IIRC. It was packed on clips.

The stuff was awful - hangfires, misfires, and a couple of duds. I knew that it was bad. I should have stopped shooting at that point but I made up my mind to finish the box. As I was nearing the end, I heard an odd report, I was enveloped in smoke, I couldn't see, and my shooting partner started shouting expletives.

Uh oh.

After several seconds of thinking that I'd been blinded I thought to remove my shooting glasses. They looked as if they'd been sandblasted. I counted my fingers, felt my face, and realized that I was more or less okay. The case had let go fairly close to the base and the gas vents couldn't handle it all. The rifle wasn't badly damaged. I'm told that my face was pretty well blackened.

The next day I went into medical, explained what had happened, and got a checkup. The docs gave me a clean bill of health, and reaffirmed that the shooting glasses had probably saved at least my right eye if not both of them.

Several years later, this remains:

tattoo.jpg


Those are specks of powder (and possibly some other stuff) in my skin. They're fading with time. It took me a few months to get over the flinch that came from this. :)

I'm not faulting the Mauser. A poorly constructed weapon probably would've left me with more severe injuries. Had this happened on the battlefield, the soldier in question may have lost his eyesight in one or both eyes but he wouldn't have died.

Moral of the story: if you're shooting milsurp ammo, know where it's from. If it's not shooting right, get rid of it. And wear eye protection. I've seen a few other guns pop, most of which let go far more violently than the M48 did, and in no case did the shooter suffer an eye injury. They work.

Edited to add: since the topic of the M-N fireball came up, here's a repost of the M38 in a darkened range:

http://www.wordzz.com/Dave/m38.wmv
 
Satori,

Is it possible that one of the duds propelled the bullet into the barrel and then you shot another round on top of it? Or did you check?

Back a long time ago the Japanese Arisakas were known to occasionally blow up. My dad told me they used to weight them down put a hot load in the chamber and stand around the corner and pull the trigger with a string to make sure they were strong enough.

I have a Type 99 7.7 I have had since high school. I paid 25 bucks for it:thumbup:
 
MANY thanks for info, Dave. Glad you weren't hurt worse... I'm also wondering if a squib was lodged in the barrel... probably never know.

HD- awesome pix!

I bought expensive Federal 8mm ammo with a mind to reload the brass down a tad... That bad ammo of yours may have been the '50's Yugo crap, very cheap; now I know why...

'70's Yugo ammo distances itself from the '50's in advertising... I did pick up some Israeli-made, may keep it for a rainy (or radioactive :eek: ) day.

The M38's extractor seems very tight. It feeds fine, sometimes fails to lockup. You probably could force it (but not in my office with live ammo :eek: ). When it does, it ejects fine.

It's growing on me. A very handy size, to be sure. Came with butt-ugly sling, ammo pouch (smelly- like a peasant's armpits, which... figures... ) and some cleaning tools, including a crown protector, which is a great idea, really.

I'm sure you could load this way down, a load meant to be competely burned in a short barrel.... I haven't reloaded since I was a kid, so later in the year- another hobby.

Typing this with the cosmoline of three different nations on my fingers.

Ballistol and water is supposed to make a good corrosive-ammo cleaning agent- that & windex.


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I don't think it was a squib. The recoil on the shot before that one was normal. If it was a squib, the second bullet took the first one out with it - the bore was clear afterwards. The barrel is not ringed or bulged. None of the classic signs of a squib load are there.

My memory of the cartridge casing itself is hazy and I didn't know as much about the topic back then as I do now, but I suppose it was either a bad case or a double charge. (Maybe both.)
 
I LUV old bolt-action military rifles.

Ad Astra said:
What was it like to face the screaming Russian hordes, 8mm Mauser in hand, shivering with cold, or could it be- fear?
Click to expand...

It was like this. You watched for snipers and guys with grenades trying to take out your squad MG42 (firing 1600-1800 rpm). When your squad moved, you carried extra boxes of ammo. If the gunner or assistant got taken out, you took over. The MG was all.
Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrp
 
Arisakas, if pre war or early war(ie properly constructed) may be the strongest of the mauser based actions. Some tests found them difficult to impossible to blow up.

The long MN's are very cool. had one once. Westinghouse... Sold it later!

Steve,

The gunshows can be pricey on the K31(at least they were last year in WS!). Find a friendly dealer to do the transfer, and consider buying from AIM or Allen's Armory, or some such place. swissrifles.com has links to good sources.

My condolences!

Tom


"Life is too ugly to hunt with a short gun."
 
gravertom said:
Steve,

The gunshows can be pricey on the K31(at least they were last year in WS!). Find a friendly dealer to do the transfer, and consider buying from AIM or Allen's Armory, or some such place. swissrifles.com has links to good sources.

My condolences!

Tom
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info Tom. I'll check prices at the online sources before I buy from the gunshow.

Steve
 
Those are good prices, considering you can touch them and look them over. last year in Winston-salem, they were all $150 or more, for pretty standard grade stuff.

Tom
 
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