Minimalist Outdoors Folk

[Cliff Stamp]

Either way, you are staking your survival on things, whether homemade or store bought. Even though he knew how to, the ice man didn't make what he needed everytime he went walking, he carried a kit. Most of it homemade no doubt, but he carried gear all the same.

He would, as man has always done, adapt to the best tools possible and learn how to use them to their maximum advantage. The "yuppie" comment above was the same statement I heard when I asked about natives in labrador using traditional vs modern clothing. The natives quickly switched, but a lot of people trying to look "cool" and be native go traditional. It also isn't like an inuit will walk out into the night with no kit and hope to craft everything from a snowbank either. My family settled this community where I live only a few generations ago, it was very much a "real life survival situation" when they first came here. They however didn't step off the boats with empty hands. Of course if you can, more on you, in general though I doubt many trappers and mountain men walked into the "field" barehanded and left guns, knives, powder, clothing, pots, matches, back for "city folk".

-Cliff

 

[coote]

If the guy who told the story was a scarecrow with wooden fingers then he may be right.

Friction generally causes heat - no matter what is rubbing together ... thus the song: "Com'on Baby Light My Fire".

But seriously folks...... here is a bit of trivia for you... The native folks of New Zealand used to use a fire plough for lighting their fires. This is where a stick is rubbed up and down in a groove on another slab of wood. I understand that the stick carried the name of the male reproductive organ, and the slab was named after the corresponding female part. Maybe the inventors of these names had a wry smutty smile on their face when they came up with them, but more likely it was just a logical system of classification that everybody could understand.

 

[Temper]

I think a lot of people have the impression that 'Wilderness survival' and 'Survival' mean being dropped for whatever reason in the middle of nowhere and thriving.

I am confident enough to be able to start a fire with nothing but the clothes on my back. A Fire Bow when practiced is pretty easy to fashion and whenever we BBQ on the riverbank I will take small knife and make a set to use just for that.

Living off the land, would, I wager, cost you your life unless you have some really uncomon hunting skills as you are just not going to get the calories you need to function properly. Humans are social animals they would have worked in teams and the loss of one good member of that team could have been the death knell for the lot of them.

When hiking/Camping I will go out of my way to make it difficult for myself, just to see how I would fare, but I never leave tools at home.

Did anyone see that Nation Geographic or Discovery Chanel about very primative people making it from Europe to the US during the ice age by traveling by boat and camping on the frozen sea. Pretty interesting, their bushcraft was superb, they had advanced stone tools but they still had a hell of a time just finding the right stone (not unlike the comment above about the African chaps going on Safari to look for the right kind of wood for specific jobs)

Vivi, I dont think anyone here is 'having a go' at you. I think most approve but we (Well I for one) think its impractical to survive for more than a few weeks and then at a poor level physically. Look at Dick Prenneke he had foods delivered to him, I dont think he could have survived very well on locally caught stuff initially.

 

[Vivi]

I posted here to get all this constructive criticism and differing opinions. It may conflict with what I feel, but I welcome it. It's the whole point of this website to me.

It seems kind of contradictory in a way to have the "prepare for the worst" mentality, and then follow up said feelings by making all sorts of gear bags and everything. Gear is very useful and has been for thousands of years, I'm not denying that. I just think it's impractical to practice a survival situation and have vaseline soaked cotton balls, lighters, ponchos etc on you. What happens when your survival situation leaves you with nothing but your wallet and EDC folder? Will you be able to survive? This is what I want to be sure of. Not because I have fears about WW3, foreign invasion etc...but because I plan to literally walk out into the wilderness with a simple pack and the clothes on my pack, make my own house and live there utilizing nature's offerings to sustain myself.

What I feel is a good method, and it's the one I've been using, is keep going out into the woods and such and practice, practice, practice. When I first came here I had never made my own fire. This week I made one in a soaked forest while it was sprinkling. I can only imagine what I'll be capable of a year from now. It's not going to be an easy process by any means. Hunting alone I have a lifetime's worth of knowledge to try and teach myself in a matter of years.

I think Codger put it really well. I, like all of you, am guilty of using gear. But when I go out into woods, one of my main goals is focusing on developing skills that rely on nature rather than things I bring with me.

Here's the test, make a friction fire and a debris shelter with a broken knee, fading light, falling temps, and intermittent drizzle.

That's the type of thing I'm aiming for.

That being said, maybe I am nothing more than a naive, idealistic teenager who's too caught up in his Native American styled fantasies. Time will tell. In the meantime, I thank all of you for the information, suggestions and so forth you've given me over the past couple of months.

 

[Codger_64]

..... I doubt many trappers and mountain men walked into the "field" barehanded and left guns, knives, powder, clothing, pots, matches, back for "city folk".

-Cliff

Actually, men who had been to the Rocky Mountain College (hivernants) could and did loose their entire kits, right down to the clothes on their backs. The ones who survived any length of time could do just as I suggest, make everything they need to survive. And they did so under not just harsh, but hostile conditions. Some of them were "city folk" when they first went west, usually under the wings of an experienced man, and supplied with their kit by a fur brigade on credit. A lot of the Redford movie "Jeramiah Johnson" was fiction, but it wasn't so far from the truth either. When it comes down to hard rock survival, I'd prefer to have a bit of the "hair of the bear" than to be a pilgrim. "Kin ye skin a bar, pilgrim?"

Codger

 

[perksy]

I see this as pretty simple. Practice all the skills you want, learn to survive with only things you find in nature, but don't go out without a basic belt kit or small pack. You don't have to carry a huge amount of gear, but to me, getting out into the woods, without a good knife, emergency shelter, water (and means of collection) and several ways of starting fire is just putting your life and others (rescuers) in danger.

 

[coote]

Good stuff Vivi.

Sounds like you are on an interesting journey. It would be great to stay in touch to learn how things work out.

I see my modern equipment as tools to help me overcome my current limits in time, knowledge and abilities.

Most folks cant light fires with no gear. They don't have a bearskin robe to sleep in. And they don't have weeks of free time to gather the knowledge and materials that they need.

So we drive to the wilderness in our 4x4. We pull our lightweight tents from our space-age backpacks, eat a freeze-dried meal then settle down for the night in our $400 down sleeping bag. But at least this enables us to enjoy what nature has provided.... even if it is just for the weekend.

But all these useful things decay or wear out. They are things that, like the Bible says (more or less), that "moth and rust can corrupt".... and we can't take them with us when we move on. But all these good things started as an idea.... they grew from need and knowledge. And knowledge and experience are the things to get because that is how everything originates.

There is some wonderful gear available for our use and enjoyment now.... and there aint nothing wrong with utilising it.

Good topic thanks Vivi.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I am confident enough to be able to start a fire with nothing but the clothes on my back.

In what conditions (weather) and in an unknown enviroment? Have you tried it in high wind, severe cold, snow/rain? I have done it with a plow which is about as basic as you can get. It is pretty easy indoors, I do it to start the wood stove on occasion. However outside, in the wind, after extensive rain, or in the winter it is very different. It takes quite awhile to actually prepare wood and you have to basically make a full shelter first to protect the embers from the elements. Compare the time it takes vs prepared tinder and the difference it makes on what you can burn.

The ones who survived any length of time could do just as I suggest, make everything they need to survive.

Settlers generally didn't, that is more romantic idealism than reality and what was the survival rate of people who actually did face such conditions (rapids causing the loss of all gear, or attacks, stolen or lost). I don't have to go back very far to find them as noted as where I live was just rocks and trees a very short period of time ago. In a small community there are generally only a few people who had the "extreme" abilities meaning not the day to day ones.

My grandfather for example was a local butcher (not what he did, just something he could do). Not every family did this, let alone every individual in every family even though almost everyone had animals. Similar with other tasks such as not every woman was a midwife, or not every individual could set broken bones. How confident are you in your abilities to fight off a severe allergic reaction or infection with no gear?

-Cliff

 

[x39]

Actually, men who had been to the Rocky Mountain College (hivernants) could and did loose their entire kits,

There's quite a difference between losing one's gear and deliberately leaving it behind.

 

[x39]

Even though he knew how to, the ice man didn't make what he needed everytime he went walking, he carried a kit.

I would be willing to wager that at least some of his kit was acquired through trade.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Well said, Coote.

Doc

 

[Ravaillac]

Here's the test, make a friction fire and a debris shelter with a broken knee, fading light, falling temps, and intermittent drizzle.

That's the type of thing I'm aiming for.

***Reality check***
friction fire require to find the right trees (or at least trees that work quite well), in the right condition, carve them, and do the drill which is challenging enough when using the right positions, which generally require using both your knees.
****************
I guess that the situation Pict describes is the kind of situation that might have killed a fully trained old-timer, trapper, native... whatever. That's why these sort of people have quickly started to use modern gear when they have become available. "Indians" have quickly trashed their old tools for steel trade axe when they have become available.

It is not that you can't become a Primitive Skill Badass (well actually it is somewhat, see the "these people spent their whole life learning outdoor" point), but let's assume you get to it still would be stupid to snob bic lighter because it's not primitive enough.

As Cliff pointed:

It also isn't like an inuit will walk out into the night with no kit and hope to craft everything from a snowbank either.

Go in a museum and have a look all the old inuit stuff. It has been a loooonng time since people, even natives no longer craft their tools themselves from the field. Your idea is somewhat a 18th century inuit eskimo telling to another "what you're using you're beautifully crafted leather kayak, you should be making it from the field, you kayak-crafting-industry-bitch".
This means that you are "aiming higher" then those people (Natives, Primitives etc), starting with the "handicap" of having grown under a solid roof with running water and electricity. Not impossible but sounds a bit arrogant to me.

Now let's have a look at the possible motivations for getting into primitive skills:

"Real" or "Efficient" survival: the thing for pilots, soldier and other professionnals... Purpose is staying alive if you really put yourself in an unexpected danger. Here the only criterium is efficiency: there are no fair or unfairy methods: getting fire from car wreck fluids is as valid as bow drill. You're looking for efficiency. Well time spent training in primitive skills might be somewhat useful, but it's by far not the most time-efficient/field-efficient preparation. That's what EMS/army rangers/etc don't train that much in that kind of skill. An easy exemple is flint knapping, you'll spend month learning to be able to knapp an efficient knife in the field, well I know many places where finding some stones edible for that kind of skill implies a 7 days hike. Of course, that doesn't mean "efficient survival" is gear only, or that having the right gear is enough for "efficient survival".

"Hobby" outdoor: some people do bird watching, some collect old coins, some train for Primitive Skills in the woods. That's perfectly fine. That's interesting, laudable and, actually, that's what I'm doing. No problem with that, but that implies spending a lot of time in the wood which are somewhat dangerous (why all these people would be talking about "survival" if not), then I'd suggest you put some "efficient" or "real" survival in your pack just in case, 'cause remember you're still training and even if in the end you master the whole thing, remember that in certain situations some Primitives would have beg for a modern lighter and nylon tarp.

 

[longbow50]

I think it's admirable that there are those that would like to learn and carry on the primitive traditions and I agree that having these skills will most certainly increase their odds in a survival situation. These skills are still very much alive in the Indian communities in this country and there is a resurgence of interest in Mountain man redezvous, bow making and primitive skills. If something happens to throw us back into the stone ages, these are the people that will be the teachers and providers.

Still, having the tool with you when you need it, is still the way to go in my opinion.

 

[Codger_64]

What I advocate is learning to overcome your fears with knowledge instead of gimmicks...crutches that may or may not be there when you need them most. Sure, "Macguyvering" is laudable. But you don't always have access to manmade objects. (this is a discussion about Wilderness & Survival Skills, not dodads you can acquire at the megastore or mailorder) . Learning to do it all without gimmicks gives you the confidence to face any situation that arises outdoors. Suppose you always carry a lighter and a knife, but you fell in a river and now one or both is gone? Can you make a knife and fire?

The very idea that the woods / outdoors is dangerous? Hell, life is dangerous, fatal actually! Learning Wilderness & Survival Skills (call it bushcraft if you like) does not appeal to some, and I understand that. "It takes too much time" , "It's too dangerous" , "There are no failsafes". That kind of thinking makes people victims, not survivors.

And Inuit this, Inuit that....any Inuit, or Tsalagi who cares at all about his ancestory learns ancestoral skills. But you do not have to have Native American blood to benefit from their knowledge about surviving in the outdoors. Neither do you have to load yourself down with baggage to use those skills. Whether or not the 5,000 year old man from the Alps actually made, bartered for, or stole the clothes he wore and the tools he carried, you can darn skippy betcha he knew how to do without them and to make more.

**Reality check** You can learn to find the right trees. You can learn to set your own broken leg, and you can make fire with your leg broken, or you can survive without fire in most environments. There is no snobbing a bic lighter, a fluffy sleeping bag, a cabin tent, or even a cabin. There is acquiring Wilderness & Survival Skills that don't rely upon anything that can break, wear out, be lost or stolen. Then you are doubly secure when you do have those items, and your survival does not depend on them.

 

[pict]

My only dog in this race is this, it's all about managed risk.

If you go out into the wilderness you increase the risk factor that you will have to do without adequate heat/shelter, water, medical attention, personal security, food, whatever.

Let me state for the record that I am not against the learning of primitive skills. I do so, and feel that there is no better way to connect with whatever place you live.

It will take you a good bit of practice, through all of the seasons of wherever you live, to get the kind of knowledge you are talking about. You may arrive at that place where you can fashion all that you need with knife and axe. The in-between years are going to be a progression of learning what works and what doesn't.

Even guys like Mors K carry their own versions of emergency survival gear. A sudden ice storm or broken bone changes everything, especially if you are alone. Under such circumstances a few key items turn the expereince into misery rather than death. You will not be burdened by a bic lighter, and space blanket.

It was Mors Kochanski who coined the phrase "The more you know the less you have to carry" IIRC. If anyone matches the skill set you describe in the opening post it is him. What he carries has been whittled down over years of primitive living. His survival kit is based around a pot to boil water and a double stuffed down jacket.

When I run my Wilderness 101 course I make sure all the students never leave camp without their basic kit: Canteen and Cup, Potable Aqua, Machete, Mora, Lighter, Compass, Whistle, Poncho, and Cordage. The also travel and train in pairs. All of this kit fits in pockets and belt. It is only after they learn how to use the minimum kit that they will have managed the risk enough to learn to do without it.

The way I see it the difference between wilderness survival and wilderness living, or short term and long term survival, is TIME. In a wilderenss emergency you have very little of it and that may be the factor that kills you in short order. You are very unlikely to find what you need to survive with primitive skills alone within crawling distance of the place you fell. Under the conditions I described in my earlier post it would be a challenge to get enough wood for an all night fire, rig up a poncho, and get into a bivy.

My dad faced such a challenge in Wisconsin. He snapped of the top of his shin-bone while hunting deer alone. His story is what motivates me to always carry the basics, he didn't have them and it was the grace of God that he was found before nightfall.

Vivi, I encourage you to learn all you can about primitive skills just do so wisely. You are no less of a woodsman if you carry the things necessary to survive a sudden storm, broken bone, fall off a cliff, or get stung by 50+ white-faced hornets. Mac

 

[SirJames]

I am all about reality. The reality of the world is that we have more people on this planet than ever before. We simply can not all live by burning up our resources just because we have an ego.

Reality 2: Of all the hikers out there, only a handfull have the time to learn primative skills to the point where they can survive with nothing. It would be stupid for these folks to not have a backpack full of proper clothing and gear.

Reality 3: The primative man was not born in a hospital and lived the modern life until he was 20-30 and then decided to go primative. That man was born at such a time when there was nothing but primative methods. He was also born into a community of survival experts, experts that also died un-natural deaths so to speak because of bad weather and slips in judgement. He was born into a community that practiced primitave skills 24/7 and had no internet, Ray Mears TV show, or Tom Brown books...or wildlife conservation officers.

Reality 4: The North American Indians were primative to a point, however, thousands of years before them, many other cultures were highly advanced like the Egyptions, Greeks, etc.

Reality 5: You are just being really really selfish when the entire SAR team of your state is out looking for you on your 1 day (now four day) hike because you drank some bad water and have cramps so bad you can't even "rub two sticks together". You can't even pull a piece of plastic over your prone body or light a fire with a lighter because you did not bring one.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

And Inuit this, Inuit that....any Inuit, or Tsalagi who cares at all about his ancestory learns ancestoral skills.

These skills adapt with time, as new materials are introduced, how come a steel knife is a gimmick but a flint knife is a praised goal. I would wonder if the same discussion was introduced when the first stone knives were knapped and people complained about the young folk with their new fangled "knives", when I was growing up we just used our fingers.

-Cliff

 

[Codger_64]

I can make a bone or wooden knife if you prefer. You are missing the entire point. The point is to learn to do without, then when you find yourself in a needful situation, and you do have your PSK, WSK, SAK, GPS, ETC., you will be that much more self confident that you could get by with less because you know how. You can reach back in history to a time when man survived by making do with what is at hand.

And the point that today's yute were born in hospitals, grew up on concrete and haven't a clue about wilderness & survival skills is well taken. Those folks are likely to get lost on a twenty minute walk in a park, and they should stay home where they only face muggers, gangs, robbers, and such. Their PSK would be vastly different than mine and yours. Practicing minimal tool and supply wilderness and survival skills is not for everyone.

James, you are showing your own insecurity when you assume that I will be unable to face a situation that scares you to think about without modern tools and conveniences. I've made many two week long wilderness trips as I talk about, and yes, situations have arisen which turned a primative camping trip into a survival situation. And yes, I handled the situation and survived, never needing a SAR mission launched to find my remains. But if you think that a ten pound PSK is going to prevent that from hapening to you, more power to you.

Codger

 

[Ravaillac]

I can make a bone or wooden knife if you prefer. You are missing the entire point. The point is to learn to do without

My point of view is actually quite the same (and is only repetition of what has been said before): learn to do without, so if you don't have it you're not lost, but if you are in a real survival/life-threatening situation where it would give you an edge you'd better have it (and not having it because it shows your "insecurity" is a dumb).

Take the kit. Have it in a sealed plastic bag. Self-discipline yourself: dont use it. In case things really go bad, use it.

Even guys like Mors K carry their own versions of emergency survival gear. A sudden ice storm or broken bone changes everything, especially if you are alone. Under such circumstances a few key items turn the expereince into misery rather than death. You will not be burdened by a bic lighter, and space blanket.

Nothing to add.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

You can reach back in history to a time when man survived by making do with what is at hand.

Yes and as soon as they were introduced to better methods they took advantage of them. Without such a perspective we would have never became "men" in the first place. No one is arguing that practicing minimaliztion is a bad thing, as Pict noted it is a natural evolution of skill development. Read for example Davenports book on Wilderness Survival vs his book on Wilderness Living where the difference is clear.

However "natives" certainly do not take a no gear approach and using what is available to you isn't relying on gimmicks, or will prevent learning. Calling a knife a crutch also just seems extreme. Man has always adapted to better tools to enable him to survive in a hostile enviroment as we are inherently very frail and some of them can literally kill you in seconds without proper gear so you have no ability to do anything besides die no matter what your knowledge.

-Cliff