Minimum dps angle for sharpening high carbide folders

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This comment from ZKnives about M390, applies equally to derivative steels CTS-204P/CPM20cv, and is repeated for those steels. Note the highlighted.

Have folks sharpening these steels found this to be the case? I have put about a 12 dps on an M390 blade, and have not seen issues yet, but this blade has not been subjected to hard use either.


M390 MicroClean(Bohler-Uddeholm) - Bohler-Uddeholm martensitic Chromium steel, made using their 3rd generation PM process. M390 features very high wear and corrosion resistance. Fine grained alloy, popular choice for high end folders and small fixed blades. working hardness up to 62HRC. Excellent performance with both, coarse and high polished edges. You still need about 15° per side edge to get the best performance and edge holding. Thinner than that, and you will run into the issue with the thin edge not being able to support all those carbides to make the edge perform. Working hardness can reach 62HRC, and most of the production knives I've seen are in 60-62HRC range. Overall, it is of the best performers as far as corrosion and wear resistance go, and because of that it is a popular choice for high end, and the limited edition knives. Aside from very good edge holding ability, maintaining the edge is very easy. And one more thing worth noticing, there's no stubborn burr forming during sharpening, therefore, there's no risk to form a wire edge either.
 
Some time ago i had a Spyderco Military in M390 fail my "after sharpening test" at (customer request) 25 degrees inclusive (the edge rolled), while another customer's Spyderco Southard in CTS-204P held up perfectly fine at the same 25 degrees inclusive angle and doing the same test, which consists of doing a few cuts into the edge of a piece of desktop (laminated wood with a tough plastic top layer) using the entire edge.

That Southard was then taken into use again by it's owner (a Dutch Scout leader) for quite some time, and the edge only failed him when he tried to cut/pry apart a few wooden logs that he managed to split incompletely with an axe.
He knew that he shouldn't have done that with the knife btw, and up until that moment the edge performed just fine for the tasks he used it for.
Since then i sharpen his knife at 30 degrees inclusive just to keep on the safe side, and the owner has been happy with it ever since.
Recently he even stated publicly on the Dutch forum that after about 4 years of ownership that Southard is the best knife he had ever bought.
 
Good examples, sounds like confirming Zknives findings. This is relatively more "hard use" than what I've used mine for, but seems real-world and I'd want my edges capable of withstanding that kind of usage if needed.

Is it reasonable to generalize this practice to other high-carbide steels, or does it only apply to the steels that follow a very similar chemical 'recipe' and process, like M390, 20CV, and 204P?
 
I think it depends more on the way you use or intended uses than the steel in this case If you are going to use it for splitting wood or rough use ... most any steel type whether a basic 1095 or M390 would benefit from not such an acute angle ... but for a real slicer the M390 an like steels will take at least 15 degree 30 inclusive if not even slightly lower angles ... and preform extremely well ... where some softer steels may start to dull incredibly quickly at acute sharpening angles.
 
About 26-28 inclusive with a 30-32 microbevel.

What I have found is most steels will hold up great to normal cutting chores at 22-24 and up. Lateral stability takes a dump at about 25 degrees though, so any hard torquing can wreck most steels. Tap the edge about 1/4" into some seasoned wood and rotate it back and forth like a windshield wiper.
 
You may want to stick with steel that can take deflection really well. So for example vanadis 4e. Something like s110v would surely chip. I don't have any zero grind, nor super thin edge m390 family of steel to say more.

Im not a fan of zero grind anymore or super thin edges on every knife after my friend convinced me. I got only a few thin behind the edge for slicing cardboard that's about it nothing extreme tho.
 
About 26-28 inclusive with a 30-32 microbevel.

What I have found is most steels will hold up great to normal cutting chores at 22-24 and up. Lateral stability takes a dump at about 25 degrees though, so any hard torquing can wreck most steels. Tap the edge about 1/4" into some seasoned wood and rotate it back and forth like a windshield wiper.

How many M390 (or 20cv) blades have you tried this on? My grand total sample size for M390 with this 12 dps edge is 1 knife, hence the post asking what others have run into, I just don't have a large enough sample size to really determine confidently what "works" and what doesn't. Though I have tried this lower angle on other high carbide steels, haven't had issues with sub 15 dps angles.
 
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The sharpening angle one should use will be highly dependent on how they use the knife and what is being cut. I think m390 is a great steel and if you are just doing light use you may be ok. i havent used my m390 or 20cv too much yet but i have had s35vn and vg10 roll at 15dps. I personally prefer keep all my edges at 20 dps because i get a very stable edge. At 20dps i dont lose my edge to chipping or rolling like i have at lower angles. So by keeping 20dps i still have a razor sharp edge that will slice paper towel clean while having enough steel behind the edge to be stable under heavier use.
 
How many M390 (or 20cv) blades have you tried this on? My grand total sample size for M390 with this 12 dps edge is 1 knife, hence the post asking what others have run into, I just don't have a large enough sample size to really determine confidently what "works" and what doesn't. Though I have tried this lower angle on other high carbide steels, haven't had issues with sub 15 dps angles.

None!
My experience doing this to a few other steel types led me to believe it was a terrible idea for any of them.

However, at a less acute angle the amount of damage drops off quite a bit - this being done with 12c27, 1095, D2.

You can go very thin if the edge isn't going to be abused or if the daily performance improvement is worth the added repair, should it have to be abused infrequently. For me I find 12-13 degrees/side with a microbevel or about 14 without still holds up well. My hatchets and machetes are all 30 inclusive or less and they hold up fine. I have a Mora classic I rotate through my EDU that's been reset to about 18° inclusive with a 22° micro and it holds up to normal use of cardboard, skid bands, green wood.

Sergeua Sergeua the amount of harm also has a lot to do with the amount of steel behind the edge - a 22-24° apex Scandi will hold up far better than a thin ground full convex or FFG.

I have reset many knives to sub 30° for customers and never had a complaint, CTS204P among them. Zknives is a great resource - maybe they have come across enough retention data to make that recommendation, I haven't yet.
 
None!
My experience doing this to a few other steel types led me to believe it was a terrible idea for any of them.

However, at a less acute angle the amount of damage drops off quite a bit - this being done with 12c27, 1095, D2.

You can go very thin if the edge isn't going to be abused or if the daily performance improvement is worth the added repair, should it have to be abused infrequently. For me I find 12-13 degrees/side with a microbevel or about 14 without still holds up well. My hatchets and machetes are all 30 inclusive or less and they hold up fine. I have a Mora classic I rotate through my EDU that's been reset to about 18° inclusive with a 22° micro and it holds up to normal use of cardboard, skid bands, green wood.

Sergeua Sergeua the amount of harm also has a lot to do with the amount of steel behind the edge - a 22-24° apex Scandi will hold up far better than a thin ground full convex or FFG.

I have reset many knives to sub 30° for customers and never had a complaint, CTS204P among them. Zknives is a great resource - maybe they have come across enough retention data to make that recommendation, I haven't yet.
I agree. You put a low angle on anything thick and it will start looking like a Scandi grind lol.
I have taken paramilitary s30v to very low angle. Not sure the exact measurement, but i freehanded it as low as comfortably possible without it being flat on the stone. Since then i even knocked the shoulders of abit with the stone and stropped it all together so it's a smooth transition. Its like convexed now. I put a 30 inclusive micro on it and it's my best folder for slicing right now.
It holds a razor edge really well, i think the edge retention is better overall now going thinner. Cardboard is easy for it. Wood is fine, as long as your not twisting the knife in it. I don't know why someone considers zip tie a challenge also. I gave it to my wife though and she chipped it a bit, cutting up a stick. I gave it to her to test it knowing what could happen. She decided to be weird and used her left hand lol and was very wobbly with it. I wouldn't be able to do this test myself to my bellowed pm2. So as long as you know what you got there and not going to open a can with it, things should be fine. M390 is tougher than s30v i think. Right?
Following is video with cheburkov knife in m390.
Its in Russian but you can see how he uses the knife and the repercussions at the end. Edit: there's 20dps angle on the knife and because its like 64 hrc it chipped. 20 is alot and some would go lower right away after buying it. This high hardness on m390 only made it harder to sharpen. 62 could have been more ideal. So hardness matters too i guess.
 
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I think it depends more on the way you use or intended uses than the steel in this case If you are going to use it for splitting wood or rough use ... most any steel type whether a basic 1095 or M390 would benefit from not such an acute angle ... but for a real slicer the M390 an like steels will take at least 15 degree 30 inclusive if not even slightly lower angles ... and preform extremely well ... where some softer steels may start to dull incredibly quickly at acute sharpening angles.
^^yup, yup ^^^

I wasn’t going to answer after it dawned on me this question is specifically about M390 etc.

The one example I have is pretty thin behind the edge (15 thou) and fairly stock bevel grind ~15° per side. The knife performs brilliantly while doing cuts that tend to roll or make lesser edges / alloys sick.

So my M390 is perfection around there abouts.
What I was doing to say and I think I will blunder on is :
When I took charge of my Dad’s pocket knives after he passed it surprised me how he sharpened them. First let me say that he was no dummy with his hands. He was a highly experienced steam fitter working with dams and steel mills and coal fired power plants. He was a farm boy and he could build a barn, lay brick and block and was always lovingly tuning and maintaining all his stuff.
So . . .
how did he sharpen ? And he never offered to teach me. With him either I got it from watching or I taught my self. I had a lot of independence growing up but not much tutelage. Double edge sword . . . and quite a dull sword until I finally got this sharpening thing together seriously when I was in my thirties.

The way he seems to have sharpened and I rarely saw him do it, was he would put a sheet of wet or dry sand paper on an inches thick steel block that he had and now from looking at the blades I see he just laid the side of the knife on the paper and sharpened SUPER SHALLOW to the edge. He appears to have always left them toothy, the grind of the grit can be easily seen on the sides of the blades. Must be 600 or even 400 grit. Worked for him. Granted this has nothing to do with M390 and I am getting to that . . .

He didn’t sharpen the lawn mower blades that way; they were at a stock angle just as you would expect. I got VERY familiar with that lawn mower once I got big enough to mow. He was very generous with his lawn mower. He “Let me” use it every week for years and years. What a guy huh ?

In the photo is my stock PM2M4; I just polished the edge. My way . . . sorry Dad.
Now usually it is my habit to reprofile thinner and sharpen the edge thinner but first I use the knife and see how she does. This knife works perfectly for me so I left it and just polished it.

The tiny Buck was one of his knives sharpened by him as described.

The Swiss Army knife at the bottom in the photo I use for a specific task at work and have pretty much sharpened way back to the sides of the knife like he did but polished, again sorry Dad.

The point is . . . what I am trying to say is : try the knife and grind it thinner until it cuts like you want or there is a problem and then steepen the edge its self a little. There are many variables.

Trial and error are the best indicator when it comes to cutting edges for hand held tools. Machine mounted cutters cutting specific materials at specific speeds and feeds . . . now that is pretty much nailed down to certain parameters.

Hand held edges . . . well . . . I would go really shallow and steepen the edge if really needed.
. . . oh . . . and carry a pry tool :
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