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Where I am having difficulties is to know when is the right moment to move to the next stone
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Mirror bevel and my weapons
- Thread starter Icarusflies
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Where I am having difficulties is to know when is the right moment to move to the next stone
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Its a WELSH SLATE PURPLE HONE but for what I see I don´t need to go farther than the Norton 8000
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If you can cross scratch patterns, then move up when the entire pattern has shifted direction. In reality is possible to do this without being entirely ready, but is a good benchmark.
Most often if I start on the 8k and see any low spots or regions where the surface does not begin to polish up almost immediately I know I have more work on the 4k. Difficult to convey in print, but off the 1k, 4k you are looking for uniformity of the surface pattern. Because waterstones release mud, is possible to have a scratch pattern that looks somewhat uniform but being worked on a finer stone the imperfections show up immediately.
These areas can be spotted with familiarity - regions where the surface looks more "frosted" than other places.
And then try to always work from the shoulder to the edge. If you wind up floating between the shoulder and apex is not going to make the job any easier. On most steels, the 8k can do a lot of work, so needn't be perfect coming off the 4k, but darn close.
Most often if I start on the 8k and see any low spots or regions where the surface does not begin to polish up almost immediately I know I have more work on the 4k. Difficult to convey in print, but off the 1k, 4k you are looking for uniformity of the surface pattern. Because waterstones release mud, is possible to have a scratch pattern that looks somewhat uniform but being worked on a finer stone the imperfections show up immediately.
These areas can be spotted with familiarity - regions where the surface looks more "frosted" than other places.
And then try to always work from the shoulder to the edge. If you wind up floating between the shoulder and apex is not going to make the job any easier. On most steels, the 8k can do a lot of work, so needn't be perfect coming off the 4k, but darn close.
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Great, thanks a lot for the info
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Is your steel the 5Cr15MoV? If so, that should be an easy steel to polish. (If not, disregard some of the following haha)...
I put a stopwatch on the 'stone time' I spent on a Kershaw with 8Cr13MoV, that should be similar steel, (along with an idea of what the stone slurry looked like 220,1000,4000,8000)...
(1st time I tried this... I was surprised how little time it took... right at 6 min. total.)
...and the result...
(BTW, didn't actually use the 'Prep Stone' during sharpening... just for the picture.)
As you can see, it takes very little time to achieve a basic mirror polish. There's a little 'haze' near the heel of the right side (top pic.) of the knife... if a quick return to the 8K didn't fix it, then drop down a stone, spend another minute or so, and try again.
I think one secret, for me anyway, is not to think about polishing so much as sharpening.... hold a consistent angle, cover the entire bevel, use the whole stone, etc. For me doing it this way, the polish seems to take care of itself. When I tried concentrating on the polish, I found myself trying to grind small areas on a small part of the stone to make it 'look good', not paying attention to the angle, taking little tiny strokes, etc., and it took longer and never seemed quite right. In my mind, polish is just a side effect of a good sharpening job.
Hope this helps... (I think I got a bit 'attached' to this thread because I like the Norton Stones).
I put a stopwatch on the 'stone time' I spent on a Kershaw with 8Cr13MoV, that should be similar steel, (along with an idea of what the stone slurry looked like 220,1000,4000,8000)...
(1st time I tried this... I was surprised how little time it took... right at 6 min. total.)
...and the result...
(BTW, didn't actually use the 'Prep Stone' during sharpening... just for the picture.)
As you can see, it takes very little time to achieve a basic mirror polish. There's a little 'haze' near the heel of the right side (top pic.) of the knife... if a quick return to the 8K didn't fix it, then drop down a stone, spend another minute or so, and try again.
I think one secret, for me anyway, is not to think about polishing so much as sharpening.... hold a consistent angle, cover the entire bevel, use the whole stone, etc. For me doing it this way, the polish seems to take care of itself. When I tried concentrating on the polish, I found myself trying to grind small areas on a small part of the stone to make it 'look good', not paying attention to the angle, taking little tiny strokes, etc., and it took longer and never seemed quite right. In my mind, polish is just a side effect of a good sharpening job.
Hope this helps... (I think I got a bit 'attached' to this thread because I like the Norton Stones).
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Hope this helps... (I think I got a bit 'attached' to this thread because I like the Norton Stones).
Same here!
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This is a ZT 0566 CF Elmax. It is not a perfect mirror as you can still see fine lines if you look under magnification. I am new at this and still learning. I used my KME system with diamonds and diamond lapping tape. 15 dps is as low as I can get the KME to go. It is really sharp, but not perfect. I applied a 20* micro bevel with my Sharpmaker. I am experimenting with different edges on several Elmax blades.
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Buufff, I am so envious when I see at you pictures.....I just spent 1 hour and I am no near a mirror edge.
I am working on a SOG instinct which is one of my cheapest knifes.
I ll try again another day. I must be going to the next grit too soon since from the 4000 to the 8000 I don´t see much improvements on the bevel.
I am just amazed to see that some of you guys get those results in 6 minutes.
I am working on a SOG instinct which is one of my cheapest knifes.
I ll try again another day. I must be going to the next grit too soon since from the 4000 to the 8000 I don´t see much improvements on the bevel.
I am just amazed to see that some of you guys get those results in 6 minutes.
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I hate to say it, but you probably shouldn't!
They're a real nice set and very easy to adapt to. They make great edges on a lot of steels and even on some of the tougher stuff they just seem to hang in there and get it done (some of the comparative reviews allude to the same quality "the Nortons were at the end of their tether but managed to just pull it off" or similar sentiment, and it goes on and on). They crush cheap steel and are reasonably fast on everything up to HSS and high VC. The 8k is (IMHO) the star of the set. It really does a great, fast job for such a high polish ( I use it right off a 240 sometimes for a microbevel). If the set stopped at 4k it would not merit much attention - good, but over-priced for the results (except they DO have great feedback, feel, and work well in a progression - but what quality set of waterstones doesn't?).
That said, they are soft. The 220 is almost useless it is so soft and muddy. I am torn between using it dry and rinsing every 30 seconds. I most often pass it by for the King 240. The set really starts at the 1k (IMHO). It is almost impossible to get the best from the 1k/4k without a trailing pass and a light hand. A great choice to master the art of flattening from use per Murray Carter. I love them, but also learned waterstones on them and Kings, they blow Kings out of the water (and I like my Kings too!). I recommend them often for a step up from entry level, but if one already has a bevy of stones they might not impress. My biggest gripe is they are overpriced, but balanced by being available all over the place in the US, so no shipping charges.
You favor for the most part the very hard ceramic stones and the Nortons are probably just like you imagine - soft, fast because they are soft, and needing finesse and time that the harder stones do not need to make a zippy edge. In my use this is balanced by markedly lower burr formation = less QC = fast once the shortcomings are accommodated.
In your stable, they would probably be relegated to convex, Scandi, and they do a great job on all the softer stainless and carbon V bevel.
On second thought, maybe you should buy em, but wait till Woodcraft has them on sale...
For anyone else that doesn't already own a ton of the better/best stones available and interested in learning waterstones, they should be on the short list.
Very nice to hear you say it. Most proponents of mirror edges are dead serious about them being superior in some way... I would never carry a knife with a mirror edge, but I respect someone having a preference and not pretending it is anything more than that...
Gaston
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Part of the answer is probably how you sharpen. I use the whole stone, and work the whole knife in both directions, adding a little pressure on the 'edge trailing' stroke, and relaxing on 'edge leading'. A good example of the technique can be found in JasonB's videos. If you feel comfortable, try this. Take the knife, (or maybe a small kitchen or 'beater' knife if you want to practice first... try one with a bevel already established). Starting with the 220, match the existing bevel, and just work the knife for a set time... taking heel to tip strokes using the entire stone. Work each side of the knife for about 30 seconds to a minute, (do at least a minute/side on the 1K), and don't worry about anything other than matching the existing bevel and covering the whole knife with the whole stone. Do that thru the entire set, (obviously, clean the knife between stones), and see what the result is at the end. You should be to at least the start of a mirror finish, and a little more time on the 8K should bring it out.
Edit to add:
p.s. You can see in the pictures of the stones (above) that doing this should create at least a fair amount of 'swarf'... so if you're not seeing this, spend a little more time on the stone.
You're right about the 220 stone, but I don't find it useless... for me, if a knife needs much work, I'll use an XC or XXC diamond stone... I then find the 220 stone is great for "erasing" the diamond work, and prepping it for the 1K. I don't rinse it during use... the mud does a great job, and once a little forms, it slows the wear. It doesn't take a whole lot on this stone to prep it for the 1K.
The 1K sees most of the work, and many knives end there. I almost never use the 4K as a finish stone, I consider it a 'prep' for the 8K if I'm going that far... so again, not a lot done on it... just 'erasing' the 1K marks. Or, I'll bypass the 4K, and use the 8K just to remove any remaining burr, and clean up the edge.
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Yeah, the 1k is the workhorse and makes a good edge of its own. I normally stop at the 4k stropped on plain paper for a nice trade-off of toothy and refined, and maintain with the odd backhone swipe if it begins to lose a step.
One of my favorite edges off this set when doing other folks kitchen knives is the 1k and then a few shallow "microbevel" passes on the 8k. Super grabby for a draw cut yet chops with grace and very fast to produce.
I'd love to keep buying different sets, but the Nortons get it done. My only real deviation was to get some super hard stones for woodworking - plane irons and chisels, and I already had a full set of Kings that I still use on a lot of lower end kitchen cutlery. In reality the Norton do both of those well too, but being softer stones they take a bit more care to keep everything super flat and outside corners crisp on the woodworking tools, and are a bit overkill on some of the cheaper kitchen fare.
I'll try the abbreviated 220 strategy next go around - normally I go to the 1k right off the XC DMT, unless I opt to start with the King 240 on lower RC tools or stuff that doesn't need a hard reset.
Martin