Missing Girl in Northern Ont

I was just reading another news article and it sounds more like the police told the FAMILY not to help with the volunteers. Most like not wanting multiple members of the same family lost.
The woman's aunt said they were ready to help volunteer crews, but were told by police it would be too dangerous.

This article: http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNe.../missing_woman_070811/20070811?hub=TopStories

mentions that there are indeed volunteer SAR crews out. So it might of just been poorly written about in the first article
 
mentions that there are indeed volunteer SAR crews out. So it might of just been poorly written about in the first article


There are volunteer SAR teams andthen there are spontanious untrained volunteers. 2 VERY different things. Both are involved in this search.

When the public is asked to help you know they are deperate or didnt have enough trained people to do the job in the first place.

I hope they stumble onto her. 8 days is the longest I ever seen someone come out in decent shape.

If she has water she has a chance as the weather has been good I understand.

Skam
 
There are volunteer SAR teams andthen there are spontanious untrained volunteers. 2 VERY different things. Both are involved in this search.

When the public is asked to help you know they are deperate or didnt have enough trained people to do the job in the first place.

Skam

It is usually a very bad situation when this happens. With the use of untrained volunteers there is considerable risk that you will wind up with more hurt or lost people. It can be a real nightmare for the Search commander to keep these people out of the way, performing a useful task, and not get them hurt.

KR
 
How absurd. There are probably many citizens who are FAR more qualified to be in the bush than the police. What a wasted resource.

If these civillians are interested in search and rescue they should join volunteer teams and get proper training, otherwise they are a liability thats usually not worth the risk.
 
SKAMMER:

Part of my search and rescue training was to look at some of the mistakes of other search teams, we studied many of the problems with the Canadian search and rescue teams of 20 years ago, it is my understanding that the system was plagued wiht problems such as inconsistent training, poor communications, and intense and immature rivalries between teams. It is my understanding that these problems and intense media scrutiny following some disasterous searches that played a major roll in the closing of many of the volunteer organizations to fold, even the ones who were not as fault.


I do not doubt your statements that political pissing contests played a large part, as I see this kind of crap every day in my area, when police departments and fire companies refuse to call SAR until days after someone is missing because they feel they can handle it internally.


In New Jersey in Urban/suburban areas of new jersey over the last few years we have had one boy under a porch for three days while PD and Fire searched. He was found within, 3 hours of the initial phone call to SAR. and the more infamous case of three children dying in a car trunk less than 100 feet from their home, while PD and fire searched for miles from the house.


My SAR group doesent going aroud trying to put out house fires or arrest criminals, I just wish PD and FD would show us the same courtesy.
 
EMS,

You bring up a lot of issues here.:eek:

Ground SAR in North America and the way we do business was changed forever due to one case.

"The Andy Warburton Story - summer 1986
Tragedy often precipitates change. In the summer of 1986 another child, nine-year old Andrew Warburton, became lost in the woods outside Halifax. Andy and his family from Ontario were visiting friends and family in Nova Scotia. Within hours a search was begun for young Andy that would come to included more than 5,000:eek: volunteers combing the woods, making it the largest ground search in Canadian history. Despite a large scale effort, his discovery was too late and young Andy Warburton died in the woods. The Team came to understand some of the shortcomings of the Nova Scotia Ground Search & Rescue program when it became necessary to effectively conduct a large, multi-team, technically difficult search. Clearly, changes were required in order to elevate the level of service that the Provincial program was delivering.

Shortly after the Warburton search, Ron Marlow, the Team's training officer, introduced the concepts of Search Management to the Team, based upon a curriculum developed by the National Association for Search and Rescue (NASAR). This initial introduction to Search Management, combined with a visit to the Team from two NASAR instructors in 1987, was the impetus for Team members to seek out training which would forever change how search and rescue operations would be undertaken by the Team.

In 1988, Ken Hill and Mike MacKenzie took the initiative to bring Jim O'Brien, then Education Officer for NASAR, to Nova Scotia to conduct a, "Managing the Search Function," workshop. Ken and Mike brought the proposal to bring a NASAR instructor to the Team where the response was mixed; old-guard feet-dragging versus new-guard enthusiasm. Don Bower took over the difficult chore of chairing a committee that would select students for the main course, as well as those who would attend the instructor's course. The RCMP paid for the course and sent three members to attend; Jim Couse, Everett Densmore, and Archie Mason.

As a result of this training, and a commitment to Search and Rescue, instructors from the Team have trained and certified, through NASAR, search management personnel throughout North America. Of particular note were the efforts of Ken Hill who wrote and edited NASAR's updated search Management program entitled, Managing the Lost Person Incident (MLPI). Ken also became a faculty instructor for NASAR, teaching the course and certifying instructors throughout North America, including at least 20 States. The publishing of this internationally recognized training manual, combined with ongoing research and training, represents a lasting tribute to the memory of Andrew Warburton. Currently three Canadian Search and Rescue specialists are authorized to teach the MLPI Instructor ("Train the Trainer") course - all are members of Halifax Regional Search and Rescue."


The above case study is now taught through NASAR and is used world wide as "How not to run a search effort"

Things have changed for the better both in Canada and the US since. However, there are still issues that need resolving like federal and regional politics within police forces, emergency responce providers, SAR teams, States and Provinces. It is better but there is still a ways to go. Standardization and juristictional issues are the big problems still.

This recently came to light during Katrina. FEMA had to answer some serious questions as to why the Vancouver, Canada HUSAR team (1,000's of miles away) was the first to arrive in New Orleans when there were a dozens of US teams not yet deployed to the disaster zone.

If you have not read the full Warburton Case (I think you have) I recommend it and the resulting book "Managing the Lost Person Incident" Available through NASAR. It is a sad and sobering story.

Still problems to overcome but as you say we try to learn from our own and others mistakes.

"So others may live"

Skam
 
Hey Guys...

Great dialog BTW....

Dr.Thor

Planting Trees ??

You with a Junior Ranger program ??

Sorry for the thread drift...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
Any news on her whereabouts??? I'm still praying for good news.:(
 
Hey Guys...

Thanks much..

I hadn't heard anything about it, and it actually came up in a conversation tonight.

I'm feeling theres Something not right with this case!!
Something missing from the picture...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
Hey Guys...

Thanks much..

I hadn't heard anything about it, and it actually came up in a conversation tonight.

I'm feeling theres Something not right with this case!!
Something missing from the picture...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST


So do some in the search from what I read, interesting to see what the out come it.
 
Hey Guys...

Ok,, lets look at the this..

I as well as alot of people took it as a person walked into the bush maybe for a pee or something, got turned around and now they are miles from where they last were...

Obvoiusly something else happened to this young lady... Unless she has somehow completely evaded this search parties grid search (which is quite possible), someone doesn't move around in there for weeks and not leave a trace.

If she was murdered or eaten by animals, some type of trace would more than likely be found...

I say she wasn't ever lost..

I believe she was removed from the park, willingly or not.. She's no longer there...

What are the chances that she wandered upon someone that would do her harm?
Several billion to one ?

In the 40+ years I've camped in provincial parks, I don't remember a single time that someone was murdered or kidnapped just out of the blue....

It's either someone who followed her there from Toronto, that knew where she was. Someone she called and possibly picked her up, or someone in her party that did something to her..

I think the answer is closer than the bush to be honest about it.......

They need either Tom Brown the Tracker, or Sylvia Brown the Pysco umm I mean Pyschic on this one....

Tom could ask the forest creatures if they seen her and Sylvia could ask the Spirits...

Something Fishy either way!

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
There are volunteer SAR teams andthen there are spontanious untrained volunteers. 2 VERY different things. Both are involved in this search.

Nothing like a few extra hundred or even thousand sets of footsign to make the SAR op more challenging for the SAR tracker. A few dozen trained people are far superior to hundreds or thousands of untrained.
 
Yeah, I remeber back in Nova Scotia we had an older woman go missing for a few days. She was seen walking on a old dirt road, someone had stopped and asked if she was alright. She just told them she was out for a walk, she also had sever alzheimer's and in reality had no clue what she was doing, normally she had someone with her all the time. This night, that caretaker thought she would be ok byheself for a bit and went home to her hubby.

Four days later a Friend of mine found her foot in a rubber boot about 8Km from the road she was on. Cyotes had eaten her, she must have wondered off on a small side road and succom to the cold (2*C with 50km winds in the fall) She had a skirt on and a small coat and the rubber boots. Again all that was found was the foot in the boot, So if an animal did get her, or animals, it is possible there was no trace, but highly unlikly.
 
Apparently there is a highway on the edge of the park relatively close to the area where she had gone jogging with the male friend. She was jogging on paved roads inside the park and these connect with the highway. What I think happened is that after splitting up with the friend, she became lost and eventually found the highway, where she flagged down a passing vehicle. She has then been assaulted and murdered by the driver of that vehicle, and her body has been dumped in some remote location far away from the park.

The more I thought about this case the more it reminded me of the so-called "backpacker murders" which occurred here in Australia during the 1990s. In these cases a truck driver named Ivan Milat picked up hitchhikers on a remote stretch of highway and murdered them in a nearby forest.
 
Don't know if the Police did it! but they need to be looking at the Guy that was with her really hard.

RickJ
 
Hey Guys..

Rick...

I have a funny feeling in a short while you'll hear that charges were laid on someone VERY close to her...

When a female goes missing my money goes on the husband, boyfriend, ect ect...

ttyle

Eric
O/ST
 
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