# modded knives in the mail for Christmas! (Thanks, Cliff)

[gunmike1]

Cliff Stamp was nice enough to send me his Krein modified Fallkniven U2, Flat to the stone ZDP Jess Horn (Hey! That looks just like mine!), and his extremely thinned out meadowlark (wharncliff blade shape now). He noted they were in as used condition after some stock runs, the meadowlark definitely needs some work. I may even give it a few passes on my DMT X-coarse before adding the micro bevel. The U2 and Horn still have biting edges, but far from optimal. I'll probably lightly stroke them straight into my Spyderco medium stone a couple time lightly to remove any fatigued metal and give them a 15 degree micro starting with my DMT 600, them going up to Spyderco medium and fine. I'll probably actually bust out the ultra fines for these 3, considering how thin they are.
The Krein modified U2 is unbelievable in how thin the edge is. I think the term scalpel gets thrown around a lot with pocket knives, but this one may well qualify, as .005" on the calipers goes a good way up the blade. Staring straight up at the edge just amazes me that Krein was able to grind it this thin. This knife strikes me as a great sheeple friendly gentleman's knife, being extremely lightweight and clip less, which is how I like to carry knives this size.
The Jess Horn is as I expected, considering I have a similarly modified one. The difference in how the primary grinds look from side to side on this knife and the differences between Cliff's knife and mine clearly reinforce that most knives have uneven primary grinds. I am going to send this knife off to Tom Krein ASAP to have him grind it as thin as possible and try to retest against the U2 on cardboard. Hopefully Krein can get it so the edge bevel can get in the 4 degree range like the U2, and then we can see if the ZDP can hold it, and if that difference in angle increases the performance over the SGPS in the U2.
The Meadowlark is in the roughest condition, as I noted, but it should sharpen up nicely. It has a bit of vertical blade play, but considering the limits Cliff tests in his reviews that is to be expected. I will use this as a guide for how thin I go on my G-10 Cara Cara. I want a high performance edge, but don't want excessive chipping. We'll see how good this inexpensive steel performs thinned out.
Thanks again, Cliff. I will EDC this trio and test them out for a while. I will give them a thorough cleaning and oiling, then sharpen them and go to work on them. I will do everything I can to not damage them, though I'm sure some minor chipping may happen considering how thin the edges are. I won't be doing any stupid twisting cuts to encourage the chipping, though. I can't thank you enough for giving me the opportunity to use your knives, and I really thank you for all of the knowledge you share with the board. I went from a guy who didn't want to use his pocket knives because they will go dull to a guy who looks forward to modifying my knives and practicing my sharpening to get maximum performance from my tools. It sure makes knife collecting a lot more rewarding when you aren't scared to scratch up some expensive steel in the pursuit of performance.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The difference in how the primary grinds look from side to side on this knife and the differences between Cliff's knife and mine clearly reinforce that most knives have uneven primary grinds.

The U2 was the same way, when I reground the edges one went way wider than the other. Krien tried to address the problem but since he was grinding a hollow onto an uneven flat it wasn't easy, I think he did a really nice job considering.

It has a bit of vertical blade play, but considering the limits Cliff tests in his reviews that is to be expected.

Yeah, that got a lot of chopping and such. If you work it loose with significant heavy work then you can lightly tap the handle to tighten it.

I will do everything I can to not damage them, though I'm sure some minor chipping may happen considering how thin the edges are. I won't be doing any stupid twisting cuts to encourage the chipping, though.

The purpose of the Meadowlark was to allow you to bound such work so you can see what it takes to damage the edge. All I would recommend is to work up to the harder work gradually so you gain the most information you can. If you take a big piece out of the primary before you have learned what you want to know I'll just send you another one.

It sure makes knife collecting a lot more rewarding when you aren't scared to scratch up some expensive steel in the pursuit of performance.

Yeah, just get a degree in an experimental physical scientist and you will eliminate that perspective completely. Most experiments will consume materials and the cost of even calibration runs are far more than even the highest custom knives.

-Cliff

 

[gunmike1]

Cliff, did you use your belt sander or your stones to regrind the meadowlark? Looks like a good clean belt sander job to get the wharncliff shape like that.

I just spent some time with the meadowlark. I cleaned out some debris, Tuf Glided it, and reground a bit flat to the stone with the x coarse DMT and the fine DMT. Unfortunately I didn't follow my own advice and cut straight into the stone before doing the microbevel, and the spyderco ceramics got a little burring (the fine DMT didn't burr much). I cut straight into the stone lightly 3-4 times, made sure it was clean under the scope, then went back to a 15 degree micro on the spyderco mediums, then the fines. It was nice and burr free (under the highest setting on my $10 Radio Shack lighted microscope), then I stropped it about 10 strokes per side on CrO loaded leather (propped against the sharpmaker sticks like I did with my benchstones. Sorry purists, I still feel more comfortable with my "training wheels"). I managed to pass my magical 3" mark from the point of hold for push cutting on newsprint! It tree tops hairs! Damn, my head is growing out of the room right now!That "cheap" steel sure can take a really nice polished edge. Now I need to get to work on it and start seeing what it can and can't take. I know when I am ready to really test it I will let my wife open some packages with it. She has no concept of proper cutting technique, and should really be left with only a box cutter for her skill level.

Thanks again, Cliff! I can't wait until I get time to tune up the U2 and Horn. My daughter is waking up now, so all sharpening equipment is back to the drawer.

P.S., I can just imagine the destruction you do in your field. Good to have grants, isn't it? I remember my introduction to civil engineering class and the thing that hooked me was testing hardened steel rods to failure on a tensile strength machine. Watching the steel go through the various stages of deformation, going past the modulus of elasticity, then finally watching the rods snap and go flying was a lot of fun for an open minded 17 year old. Also, seeing how much force it took to overcome the tensile strength of steel makes me appreciate the lockback design, especially something of the magnitude of the Manix.

 

[gunmike1]

The U2 sharpened up real nice last night. I just cut straight into the stone a couple times, and used the sharpmaker. It was tree topping hairs after the brown stones, then kept getting sharper all the way through the ultrafines and CrO loaded strop. Even at this ultra polish level the edge has a real bite to it. It is amazing that after cutting straight into the stone a couple times it only takes a few passes to bring it back to full sharpness. My wife sh*t canned all of my newsprint , so I couldn't test that, but the way it tree tops hairs it seems the sharpest I've ever gotten a knife. I really need to get some thread and cord like Cliff uses to get some reapeatable, objective numbers on the sharpness and aggression I'm getting. I really look forward to using this knife, it should be a stand out cutter.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Cliff, did you use your belt sander or your stones to regrind the meadowlark?

Mainly stones, over time. It should really be hollowed out, I am going to chop the top guard off of my belt sander to allow that, though the wheel radius is much too small. I figure I can adapt to that however by using variable passes, though that may be too difficult.

That "cheap" steel sure can take a really nice polished edge.

Ironically, the group of steels usually regarded as inferior stainless (low carbide) are those actually designed to be cutlery steels, the really high carbide ones are more for dies and such. What is kind of interesting is how there is such a disparity between how people look at the "carbon" vs stainless steels.

People will call 52100 an excellent knife steel but heavily critize 420HC and praise 154CM. 420HC is much closer to 52100 than 154CM in regards to microstructure and general behavior. Those steels (low carbide) are really cheap and thus are used in cheap knives, given cheap treatment and they (surprise) are not overly impressive.

It is mainly just another case of cause and effect being not correlated properly.

The U2 sharpened up real nice last night.

That is an interesting steel and Fallkniven did a nice job of optomizing the U2 for the material, run it hard with a very thin edge. That way you don't have any issues with grindability and the carbides are well supported by the harder steel. Krein's regrind just enhanced this process and it doesn't matter at all about the grindability when there is so little steel to remove.

I really look forward to using this knife, it should be a stand out cutter.

There is a downside to this which is kind of serious. Whenever I do stock work on most production blades now (last few years) I am almost always heavily disappointed because everything I carry is much thinner. My cutting knives are 5-10 and the heaviest I go is 10-15 and they are heavy choppers.

Recently I did some routine kitchen work, peeling potatos, slicing carrots, etc., with a new knife and was really not impressed to put it mildly. I then spec'ed the edge and found that it was about 0.015"/15 degrees. By most counts that would be well regarded but I am used to such work with profiles much thinner. That is a chopper edge grind.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

I have some questions that I would like to converse about.

What is your opinion of Benchmade's use of D2 as base material in their 710 line? Does one really need a coarse finish and do a lot of slicing to take any benefit from the steel? And if one were it use it mainly as a fruit knife, would one find it a bad fit with respect to ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance?

And do you have any experience with Al Mar's Aus-8? I'm looking at something like a $100 Micarta Hawk (looks to be full flat and delicately ground)? Do you think it might be sufficient to impress someone with a mild distain for stainless (which I suspect arises mainly from not having used any quarter-decent stainless, say nothing better than an above average SAK in composition and hardness). It is not an insignificant amount of money, and I want to impress with the design and steel.
http://newgraham.com/detail.aspx?ID=3484

 

[gunmike1]

There is a downside to this which is kind of serious. Whenever I do stock work on most production blades now (last few years) I am almost always heavily disappointed because everything I carry is much thinner. My cutting knives are 5-10 and the heaviest I go is 10-15 and they are heavy choppers.

Recently I did some routine kitchen work, peeling potatos, slicing carrots, etc., with a new knife and was really not impressed to put it mildly. I then spec'ed the edge and found that it was about 0.015"/15 degrees. By most counts that would be well regarded but I am used to such work with profiles much thinner. That is a chopper edge grind.

-Cliff

I agree. .015"/15 degrees is pretty good for the production knives I've measured, but it is a whole different class than <.005"/4 degrees like the mod U2. I thought my R2 was a light sabre from the factory, and indeed it was very sharp (about .018/12 degrees). It was even sharper after Ben Dale polished it. But this U2 was tree topping arm hairs in less than a minutes time on the spyderco mediums, including cutting straight into the stone to remove the edge. It probably only took 5 minutes including the stropping and it was tree topping arm hairs better than the Dale sharpened R2. And I suck at sharpening compared to Ben Dale (or most people on this board), it's just the geometry makes it that easy to sharpen. Unfortunately I couldn't do a direct comparison on the newsprint test with the R2, but the R2 is now in serious need of a regrind. Maybe I can send it off to Krein to fully hollow, but I'm not sure how thin the VG-10 can handle, but I'd like it in the .008"/6-7 degree range if not a little thinner. After dealing with this U2 it does make most any other cutting tool I have used seem like an axe in comparison. The size, weight, steel, and Krein's grinding skills make it a really impressive package. I think people need to actually use it to believe the benefits of such a thin and acute edge on a high, thin hollow grind. Instant, burr free microbevel sharpening, great edge retention, but just remember not to twist out of a tough cut. I really look forward to doing some stock work with the reground Horn, and when I get the money I think I'll have Krein regrind my R2 and Native. Cliff, I'll have to blame you when my wife keeps asking "Who is this Tom Krein and why are you sending him so much money?".

Edit to add: I just push cut some newsprint (The San Francisco Chronicle, not the stuff I usually use) and got right around 4" with the U2. Pretty damn good. I wonder what Ben Dale could do with this thing? Of course he doesn't recommend angles nearly this thin on pocket knives, but I'm sure he could get it rediculously sharp.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

After dealing with this U2 it does make most any other cutting tool I have used seem like an axe in comparison.

Yeah, that is what it actually means to have a knife focused purely as a light cutting tool. Once you get used to mainly guiding the knife through media instead of having to actually push it significantly then other knives just seem really inefficient.

Alvin Johnson has been doing such regrinds of knives for about 20 years or so and talking about it on rec.knives. Way back before the forums there was a lot of such discussion on an email list and numerous makers noted that was how they made the knives they carried.

A set of calipers at 0.015" would go about 1/4" up into the primary grind. That is a really radical shift from most production and even custom cutlery. As noted this does restrict the knife in that you can't twist it significant in hard materials, that is where you would switch to full flat grinds for a more robust profile.

I think people need to actually use it to believe the benefits of such a thin and acute edge on a high, thin hollow grind.

Yes, it all goes back to the basic principle of minimization of material to match the force responce of the media. The knife should have the smallest amount of steel necessary to keep it in one piece. Of course there are complications to this such as some knives (parangs) needed more steel to prevent wedging and give the necessary inertia.

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

What is your opinion of Benchmade's use of D2 as base material in their 710 line? Does one really need a coarse finish and do a lot of slicing to take any benefit from the steel? And if one were it use it mainly as a fruit knife, would one find it a bad fit with respect to ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance?

D2 is a really coarse carbide steel, 50 microns, so it best suited for either obtuse edges, 20+ degrees, or very coarse edges. As with all properties edge stability is influenced by a mix of variables and thus even though D2 is fairly coarse, if it is significantly harder you would still expect it to fare better at a higher polish than a softer steel which deformed too readily, or was in fact difficult to hone to a crisp edge in the first place.

While some like Landes and Verhoeven are very critical of steels like D2 and 154CM as knife steels they are comparing them to optimal steels which always has to be kept in mind. Saying something isn't the very best is a long way from saying there is no use for it. Pine is a pretty poor wood to burn, but it will still keep you warm on a cold day, you just need a lot more of it than a better wood.

I think D2 makes a lot of sense for Benchmade for the following reasons :

1) It is a change from M2 and you can always sell change as an upgrade. This is in fact the main reason that you get such an explosion of fad steels (or fad anything) because people who were an instant ago perfectly fine with what they were using now suddenly are convinced it is inadequate.

2) It is more stainless than M2 and likely that was one of the complaints. Benchmade can market this as a "tool steel" (which is a sort of generic term now for high quality) which has corrosion resistance approaching stainless and thus argue that customers are getting the best of both fields.

3) Few people use edges so acute that they will notive issues of carbide instability and the limitation it poses on angles/sharpness. Most people consider 15 degrees acute and tactical knives and heavy use knives in general are commonly sharpened at very high angles.

4) Most people don't keep their knives very sharp anyway or in fact get them very sharp in the first place and thus they are looking for long term edge retention at low sharpness which depends strongly on wear. They don't stop using the knives when they fail to slice paper cleanly, they stop using them when they don't cut anything at all and for such use steels like D2 will radically out perform steels like 13C26.

[Al Mar's Aus-8]

Do you think it might be sufficient to impress someone with a mild distain for stainless (which I suspect arises mainly from not having used any quarter-decent stainless, say nothing better than an above average SAK in composition and hardness).

AUS-8 is akin to A2, both are movements away from the low carbide steels (13C26 and O1 respectively) and offer greater carbide volume and thus wear resistance. Neither are however so high that many would note problems with carbide volume, in fact most, even discriminating users like Clark and R.J. Martin will praise the steels for sharpness (AUS-8 and A2 respectively) because high carbide steels like ATS-34 tend to dominate current cutlery.

Unfortunately most companies use AUS-8A well below maximum as they lose 1-2 point due to lack of oil and another 1-2 due to no cold treatment. This isn't just an issue with AUS-8 of course. So like the SAK's it will still be a bit gummy on the hones but should be a large step up from SAK's in most regards, aside from extreme demands on ductility/corrosion resistance.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

Thanks for commenting. I don't have a problem using decent Aus-8 myself, but this is a gift so considerations are different. Al Mar's stated hardness of 57-59 is pretty standard for the steel I guess. I am also looking at Spyderco Kopas (VG10) and the Falkniven U2 (SGPS?). The Kopa's steel is fine, the handle is attractive (although I'm apprehensive about Spyderco lockbacks), the price is a bit higher. The U2 probably has the most impressive steel of the three, but the handle is really lacklustre. Prehaps a fun/attractive handle is more important than a really nice steel.

Your opinion is that it is a good move for Benchmade, but does that mean it's a good move for the consumer? A vibrant Benchmade is definately a good thing, but where a choice of steel previously existed now is not an option (the "merging" of 154CM and M2), and that I'm grummy about. I guess what's going to make or break the knife is the edge thickness, and consequently how easily a relieve bevel can be applied.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The U2 probably has the most impressive steel of the three, but the handle is really lacklustre.

Yeah, I prefer larger grips. The Finch for example I have been carying as my main EDC for awhile now and it has really set in how much of an influence handles have on cutting ability. I have reground the Finch and still struggle with tasks like peeling potatos due to problems with manipulating the blade due to the small grip. I realize of course that this is a keychain knife but I was interested in how much blade I actually wanted, or could reduce to without seriously limiting work.

Your opinion is that it is a good move for Benchmade, but does that mean it's a good move for the consumer?

The main advantage D2 would have over M2 is corrosion resistance but that is murky ground because it takes a lot to seriously corrode M2 and it doesn't take much more to really pit D2. In all other areas M2 is far superior, MUCH higher edge stability with similar wear resistance and much tougher and more ductile. It is more expensive to buy and harden so Benchmade should be lowering prices with the switch to D2 but I doubt that is the case.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

I've been doing more thinking and decided spending $100/125 bucks for a Al Mar Hawk/ Spyderco Kopa is not what I want to do at the moment consideration their size and that a full-sized folder can be had for the same money or less. I was speaking of the U2 handle being lacklustre in the asetheic/embelishment sense, but your point of the size is revelant as well. I think it will really propell it into a different class with a 4 1/4 inch or so handle (probably with an increased blade length as well to fit in the handle, 3 in), something to challenge the mini-Grips for instance. Right now it's small and frankly looks like a Gerber LST.

Another question, do you think it would be realistic to produce production folder blades (Benchmade/Spyderco level) with something like A7 or other steels that produces high hardnesses (>62) with relatively low austentizing temperatures, 1775 F/ <1000 C? I recall being mentioned how many will not heat to 1100 C as it will damage their furnaces and many of the steels will not therefore reach a very good level of carbon/chrom dissolution [for stainless steels]. I see an example of A7 getting to 65.2 with 1775 and a low temper of 275. I realize it will not be stainless, but hey, my high carbon Opinel doesn't look that bad at all.

A7: 2.3 C, 0.4 Si, 0.7 Mn, 1.1 W, 1.1 Mo, 5.25 Cr, 4.75 Van

PS: Man, that last few points is hard to get! 1230 C and a four temperings of 550 C for HrC 70 for super high speed steels.

 

[gunmike1]

Yeah, the only thing I don't really like about the U2 is the short handle. That is made up for by the extreme sharpness and cutting ability, but I much prefer the handle on my Jess Horn as it allows my whole mitt to get on the handle. Which reminds me I need to get off my butt and send the Jess Horn to Krein to thin out.

I just resharpened the U2 flat to the stone to remove the microbevel, and brought it all the way up from X coarse DMT to ultrafine spyderco rods and a CrO loaded strop. I can't believe that I can get such good pushcutting performance. A newbie like me getting an average of just over 4" from the point of hold pushcutting newsprint, I can't belive how easy it is to get sharp and burr free. Tree topping arm hairs as usual. I just love this knife. Interesting to note the microbevel had no measurable effect on sharpness by my unscientific tests. With the angle so thin on this knife the microserrations from the DMT 600 were huge under my Radioshack 60-100x scope. I see what Cliff means about needing to go with finer finishes on such acute angles.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Another question, do you think it would be realistic to produce production folder blades (Benchmade/Spyderco level) with something like A7 or other steels that produces high hardnesses (>62) with relatively low austentizing temperatures, 1775 F/ <1000 C?

1095 austenizes at 1450 and can reach 66 HRC. It is commonly hardened in very high volume ($3, chisels) on a continuous belt using induction coils and water sprays. The chisels are not ran that hard in western blades but are close to it with the japanese ones of the same class of materials (W series). You can push up the hardness beyond this a few points with the very high carbon version of the W series steels.

The really high hardness HSS have a massive amount of carbide but the reason they are so hard to heat treat is because you are trying to dissolve a lot of it and those carbides are massively heavy and take a huge amount of time/heat to diffuse. The secondary precipitation of that carbide gives the steel the heat resistance. You can get similar hardness and wear resistance (with greater edge stability) with the cold work grades without of course the hot hardness.

The reason most blades are soft isn't as much the cost but the misconception that is a good thing and the really common (and extremely horrible) idea that 60 HRC is some kind of universal sweep spot for every steel and the really common misconception that toughness decreases monotonically with hardness.

Note cold treatments in knives has been around a long time, there is some dispute over its introduction by Buck/Case. From what I have read Buck was doing it first but Case went public first. For a striking hardness contrast, look at Sandvik blades in 12C27M which are 58 HRC while the NA blades in the same steel class are many HRC points lower and the Sandvik blades cost $5. You really can't argue cost of heat treating when such knives exist at that cost.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

Thanks for the perspective. It'll be someting to mull over. I mentioned A7 because that was one of the steels being compared to in a piece on a high wear carbon/vanadium steel.

 

[kel_aa]

Looking through the Lee Valley catalogue I see planer blades of O1 at 58-60, A2 at 60-62, 1095 at 62, and HSS at 62-64. It seems some markets are quite willing to push past 60.

The reason most blades are soft isn't as much the cost but the misconception that is a good thing and the really common (and extremely horrible) idea that 60 HRC is some kind of universal sweep spot for every steel and the really common misconception that toughness decreases monotonically with hardness.

Where does this idea come from? The manufacture's unwillingness to go higher due durability/warranty liablities and cost/sales? It doesn't impress upon my mind that there is some sort of active promotion of this 60 hardness from the manufactures. They call 60 hard, which is true compared to the knives in the mid 50's and lower 50's like the Douk Douk that quite a few are fond of.

Do you think the few blades that have pushed pass 60 like the older Benchmade M2 and the new ZDP knives have made an difference in the mind of the North American market? Do you think another sprint run by Spyderco will make a difference? It made quite an impression in my mind how someone like STR can readily reach out to the ZDP blades and have reservations about the usability of 13C27 at a similar hardness.

You have said for various reasons some of it is not the manufacturer's fault and that the best thing for the consumer/those interested is to be educated. It is my impression that a lot of misconceptions are being spread by consumers one to another, and when enough people believe that it becomes ingrained and becomes the "truth." I applaud your courage, tenacity, and rigorousness in seeking and passing on the real "truth".

-Kelvin

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Where does this idea come from?

This depends on who you ask, but how it persists comes from a lack of knowledge about steels. This misinformation is spread and becomes law because of acceptance on faith which is encouraged by many makers/manufacturers.

Do you think the few blades that have pushed pass 60 like the older Benchmade M2 and the new ZDP knives have made an difference in the mind of the North American market? Do you think another sprint run by Spyderco will make a difference?

Yes, and yes. I think it will take quite some time before the golden rule of 60 HRC is destroyed, but every knife out there which shows this to be invalid helps. I am going to start doing more focused passarounds of this nature in the future with knives designed specifically to illustrate various cutlery myths.

I am also in process of obtaining and having translated a large volume of cutlery specific research (european) to eliminate one of the avenues that many use to continue hype in the face of evidence which is to ignore work which is "unscientific" when it contradicts them. Though of course they will cite work which is widely less controlled and often so vague to be completely undefined.

You have said for various reasons some of it is not the manufacturer's fault and that the best thing for the consumer/those interested is to be educated.

It isn't the responsibility of a salesperson to educate you. Their job is to sell you their product. For a maker/manufacturer to oppose a well accepted trend makes no sense from a monetary basis and by extension it isn't sensible to blame them when they accept and even promote a trend.

It is my impression that a lot of misconceptions are being spread by consumers one to another, and when enough people believe that it becomes ingrained and becomes the "truth."

On an ironic note, one of the biggest complaints on Bladeforums is the sheep like mentality of non-knife people yet how many times do you see accept ance of statements from makers/manufacturers with no supporting data.

I applaud your courage, tenacity, and rigorousness in seeking and passing on the real "truth".

I don't have a monetary connection to the industry so it isn't difficult and I never was concerned about being popular with sheep. A maker however who constantly points out hype and misinformation like Cashen is risking a lot more because his income is at risk if the backlash is severe.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

Here is an originally Russian paper, Corrison Resistance in Knife Steels, S. D. Bogolyubskii, V. V. Guk, and A. P. Shlyamnev. The Russian designations are understandable, but I think Table I is in error due to possibliy the work of the translator. It shows the variabillity of corrison resistance based on the compostion ranges in any particular grade of steel, and the effect the austentizing temperature has on corrosion resistance. And here is one you'll like:

"According to the data of TsNIIChERMET the cutting and ductile properties of this steel [50Kh14MF] can be raised by a factor of 2 &#8211; 3 by choosing an optimum heat treatment regime [4] without worsening the high hardness."


http://www.filecrunch.com/file/~kptodn
You should probably host it yourself as I am uncertain of the long term prospects of this server.

PS: I know Cliff knows what rigorous means in this context, but for those who don't, it doesn't have anything to do with beating a dead horse or being a dog with a bone.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

"According to the data of TsNIIChERMET the cutting and ductile properties of this steel [50Kh14MF] can be raised by a factor of 2 &#8211; 3 by choosing an optimum heat treatment regime [4] without worsening the high hardness."

That sounds familiar for some reason. Thanks for the paper, much of the information is the same as presented by Verhoeven though in a different manner. It is interesting to see a focus more on the corrosion resistance which would be expected for the more commercial kitchen cutlery. 12C27M actually has the balance of C/Cr to both allow corrosion resistance even in those extreme enviroments and a hardness of 59/60 HRC.

12C27 gains 1-2 HRC points and the average composition will give the required corrosion resistance but you would expect some of the batches to be outside of it. It would be nice to see a manufacturer like Spyderco use this kind of infomration to come out with a couple of kitchen knives. Say a chef's knife in 12C27M at 59/60 HRC (and lets not accept any nonsense about this being too difficult when $5 mora's are 58 HRC in the same steel), with an edge of 0.025"/15.

This would be the introduction piece, still with better cutting ability and edge retention than most stainless kitchen knives and still very affordable. Then an upper level piece out of 13C26 at 62/63 HRC with an edge of 0.005"/10 degrees for users who are not as rough edge wise or enviroment.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

How much would such knives cost? Something in the $40 and $50-60 US dollar range? I probably won't be spending that much on a kitchen knife, but like the idea, going to the ideal range for the materials.

Similar to how you comment on the Benchmade Ambush with Aus8 at or near 60, the Benchmade NRA Fecas Gunstock folder has attracted my attention. It is Aus8 spec'ed at 58-60, of Taiwanese manufacture. A near 60 sample would be great, but I think the killer is the hollow grind (at least from the picture). I would really think there would be more of a buzz around this knife, unless the grind is really crappy, the lock really weak, or people are so put off by the fact that it's a $20 knife from Taiwan. Would you have the time to put one through the paces in the next few months? You know, even the balance sheet a little between your Benchmade column and Spyderco column? http://www.nraknives.com/products/product_detail.aspx?model=12300