Modern stainless super steels in the kitchen?

Achim Wirtz, who distributes the Lohmann steels to knifemakers and has even has some custom melts done (bringing back 115W8/1.2442 tool steel from the gave for one) chastised me when I told him that I had heard that Niolox was like better AEB-L. :D He said that they are not really similar, but the Niolox was well on its way to dominating the food service equipment industry in Germany. AEB-L has incredibly fine grain and very fine carbides. Niolox has bigger and HARDER carbides, but not huge ones like D2 and it still has very fine aus grain because of the Niobium.
Noctis3880 said:
Well the new generation PM process that Carpenter uses makes the carbide distribution much more refined, so the edge holding is very similar to AEB-L with better than D2 wear resistance, though I notice it rusts like D2 as well.

I've heard Niolox is also like AEB-L, but with better wear resistance and very good corrosion resistance despite the lower chromium content.
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Noctis3880 said:
Well the new generation PM process that Carpenter uses makes the carbide distribution much more refined, so the edge holding is very similar to AEB-L with better than D2 wear resistance, though I notice it rusts like D2 as well.

I've heard Niolox is also like AEB-L, but with better wear resistance and very good corrosion resistance despite the lower chromium content.
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Correct me if I am wrong but a more even carbide distribution has the real-world benefit of making the edge deformation more even as the knife is used and avoiding 'hot spots'...which indirectly increases impact resistance by reducing weaker spots that are the most vulnerable part of the blade to catastrophic failure...simultaneously, it makes the knife easier to sharpen despite such improvements in performance as the steel is more consistent throughout the blade. Is that correct?

If so, would the change in the processes of making CTS-XHP theoretically give the same type of performance improvement that S35VN gives over S30V in regards to a more consistent level of wear, greater toughness, and easier sharpening?

While I doubt my term 'hot spots' is correct, I am trying to refer to the issue of when small spots on the edge do not wear at the same rate of the rest of the knife (and can be a pain to sharpen), which I find to be incredibly annoying. And it's why I have taking a liking to Blue/White steel as I find it to wear very evenly. I have noticed this hot spotting mainly on large fixed blades (including larger kitchen knives)...any idea why that is?
 
pnsxyr said:
Correct me if I am wrong but a more even carbide distribution has the real-world benefit of making the edge deformation more even as the knife is used and avoiding 'hot spots'...which indirectly increases impact resistance by reducing weaker spots that are the most vulnerable part of the blade to catastrophic failure...simultaneously, it makes the knife easier to sharpen despite such improvements in performance as the steel is more consistent throughout the blade. Is that correct?

If so, would the change in the processes of making CTS-XHP theoretically give the same type of performance improvement that S35VN gives over S30V in regards to a more consistent level of wear, greater toughness, and easier sharpening?

While I doubt my term 'hot spots' is correct, I am trying to refer to the issue of when small spots on the edge do not wear at the same rate of the rest of the knife (and can be a pain to sharpen), which I find to be incredibly annoying. And it's why I have taking a liking to Blue/White steel as I find it to wear very evenly. I have noticed this hot spotting mainly on large fixed blades (including larger kitchen knives)...any idea why that is?
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Not sure about edge deformation as the problem usually results in tiny chips, which I presume would be large carbide chunks chipping out. In every piece of documentation I read, the PM process is supposed to make the steel tougher compared to their normal counterparts.

From what I could personally observe, Elmax and M390 both seem to take a mirror polish easier than S30V and other equivalents which might have less vanadium carbides, and I find them both easier to sharpen as well.

As for the fixed blades, I'm not sure why it would happen. They should both come from bar or plate stock. Though typically kitchen knives should normally be a higher hardness than pocket knives as they aren't expected to be put through any hard or potentially abusive use like batoning or prying, so that might be a possible contributing factor.


jdm61 said:
Achim Wirtz, who distributes the Lohmann steels to knifemakers and has even has some custom melts done (bringing back 115W8/1.2442 tool steel from the gave for one) chastised me when I told him that I had heard that Niolox was like better AEB-L. :D He said that they are not really similar, but the Niolox was well on its way to dominating the food service equipment industry in Germany. AEB-L has incredibly fine grain and very fine carbides. Niolox has bigger and HARDER carbides, but not huge ones like D2 and it still has very fine aus grain because of the Niobium.
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I thought AEB-L didn't have much in the way of carbides? At least relative to something like 440C. From what I understand, more carbides tend to get in the way of a finer edge, and niobium and vanadium carbides are typically smaller than chromium carbides(at least according to Crucible). Though I haven't heard anyone claim that Niolox takes a finer edge than AEB-L, I guess it would be accurate to call it something between AEB-L and D2? Though if the wear resistance is already at D2 levels, then I'd consider it to be better.
 
I don't think that many things get as fine as AEB-L, 52100, maybe W2 and some of the Hitachi stuff, but I am told that the Niolox will get pretty fine and pretty hard too. i am making some kitchen knives out of 115W8 right now and it has a good chunk of tungsten in it, like 1/9%, which is also a good former of small, hard carbides and apparently makes for a VERY tough blade at pretty high hardness in this case. Some of my buddies in the Netherlands and Belgium have made high hardness damascus using it and their version of 15N20. they say on thinner blades, you can flex the tip with no ill effect even at like 63+ Rc. I may try to make a yanagi-ba for Brussels using damascus made from this stuff and Aldo 15N20. I have enough left for a couple of blades that size. I am also doing my first 4 knives from AEB-L. Film at 11.
Noctis3880 said:
Not sure about edge deformation as the problem usually results in tiny chips, which I presume would be large carbide chunks chipping out. In every piece of documentation I read, the PM process is supposed to make the steel tougher compared to their normal counterparts.

From what I could personally observe, Elmax and M390 both seem to take a mirror polish easier than S30V and other equivalents which might have less vanadium carbides, and I find them both easier to sharpen as well.

As for the fixed blades, I'm not sure why it would happen. They should both come from bar or plate stock. Though typically kitchen knives should normally be a higher hardness than pocket knives as they aren't expected to be put through any hard or potentially abusive use like batoning or prying, so that might be a possible contributing factor.



I thought AEB-L didn't have much in the way of carbides? At least relative to something like 440C. From what I understand, more carbides tend to get in the way of a finer edge, and niobium and vanadium carbides are typically smaller than chromium carbides(at least according to Crucible). Though I haven't heard anyone claim that Niolox takes a finer edge than AEB-L, I guess it would be accurate to call it something between AEB-L and D2? Though if the wear resistance is already at D2 levels, then I'd consider it to be better.
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I know its a carbon but what do you guys think of Super Blue? I recently saw what is, in my mind at least, a very reasonably priced knife that is Super Blue clad in stainless. I have no experience with the Japanese steels at all.
 
I have used 3V in several chef knives with great results. I have a 10" chef that I use almost daily and it is awesome. The edge is super thin at around .007" at the shoulder and I have no chipping issues. I cut a lot of meat and really like the aggressiveness that 3V offers. I have not sharpened the knife for well over a year, I just give it an occasional stropping and it continues to split hairs.
I do 80% of my cutting on a bamboo board and the rest is on plastic. After all the use this knife has just the very slightest patina forming, and I do not take the best care to avoid the formation. I have never oiled and it does not always get washed after using.
If I had to pick just one knife steel to use for the rest of my career I would not hesitate to pick 3V. I have made every type of knife from it and I think with the proper edge geometry it excels at all things put in front of it.
 
Nice, Chris. I have been using 3V in a few swords and camp knives, but didn't really think of it for a kitchen knife. I really like how Peter's does the heat-treat on it for me. And, I'm surprised it has very little patina... Awesome, I just might have to give that a try.
-M
 
Michael, I soaked a 3V knife in vinegar once for over 24 hours and it developed zero patina. When I got my first piece of 3V from AKS Chuck told me to grind it thin. I was skeptical, but it really does handle that thin edge very efficiently. The only thing I am not a huge fan of with 3V is the difficulty in finishing.
 
Chris, in my limited experience, I found that 3V is tricky even when it is not hardened. It builds up heat FAST during rough grinding with Blaze belts. I will be using it on my future mid-techy stuff and I am seriously considering going with salt heat treatment so that I can take it down to as close to final finish as I can BEFORE HT. Have you ever tried to etch/passivate the stuff like Jerry Hossom does?
Big Chris said:
Michael, I soaked a 3V knife in vinegar once for over 24 hours and it developed zero patina. When I got my first piece of 3V from AKS Chuck told me to grind it thin. I was skeptical, but it really does handle that thin edge very efficiently. The only thing I am not a huge fan of with 3V is the difficulty in finishing.
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Joe, I have not tried etching it, but I have read several times on another forum that etching practically eliminates the spot rusting and the micro pitting attributed to those spots. I do want to get some etchant and give a try someday.
 
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