Modified Weapons-Your Liability

[AlaChoctaw]

The main reason that most police departments ban guns with any exterior modifications,and that most veteran officers do not carry modified weapons off duty, is that in the wake of a shooting,in civil or criminal court a modified weapon will be used as evidence that the officer is a "gun nut" and probably looking for trouble.(Don't take my word for this,ask a plaintiff attorney).

Similarly, if there is any chance that you will ever need to use your knife defensively,that is to cut or stab someone,I strongly suggest that your knife be maintained as closely as possible to the way it left the factory.Modified or customized knives are great in your collection,but probably not in your pocket.

When young officers tell me (NRA Police Firearms Instructor,Distinguished Expert in police pistol) that they want to modify their weapon for either on or off duty use, I always advise them to just find another gun that is closer to what they want to carry,and learn to use it well.With all of the wonderful knives avilable to us these days,there is no compulsion to use a modified knife.The liability is very real.Please take this caution in the spirit in which it is intended.I definitely don't know it all,but have earned most of my experience the hard way!

 

[Corduroy]

It's a stroke of very bad luck that I am about to be without computer access for a while and won't be able to see how this thread develops. I think that a fair point has been made, but I feel obliged to offer the counterpoint, since modifying knives is a large part of my shop's activities.

While it is true that a poorly modified firearm can be a danger to its owner, nearly all of the world's most accurate, fastest, and most generally effective firearms (at least handguns) are modified. The SOCOM may arguably be "the exception that proves the rule."

Also, a gun is a fairly complex machine, at least when compared to a knife. Knives are simple machines. Pathetically simple, in fact. This is why so many self-taught individuals and small companies manufacture top-quality knives, while very few private individuals have ever taught themselves how to make really workable guns.

The statement that a knife should be maintained "as closely as possible to to the way it left the factory" for maximum effectiveness assumes that it leaves the factory at or near an optimal state. This is sadly not always so. Many knives leave factories these days with quality control problems that are genuinely dangerous to the user but easily fixed after-market, to say nothing of the downright senseless designs that are sold by some companies in the name of "defense."

I modify knives. Although a lot of my work is cosmetic, I think that what I do frequently improves their grip and their action. When it won't, I say so and let the customer decide. I know that many of "my" knives are out in the world (and one in my pocket) serving their owners better than the original pieces could have done.

Would you honestly be afraid to carry a firearm that had received a "trigger job?" Perhaps one that had been ported to reduce recoil? Or even - dare I say - engraved?

If you answered yes to any of those, modified knives probably aren't for you.


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-Corduroy
"Why else would a bear want a pocket?"

Little Bear Knives
Drew Gleason:
adg@student.umass.edu

 

[AlaChoctaw]

Corduroy, my point has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the knife.I have great respect,bordering upon awe,for you and others who have the talent to improve upon what the manufacturers provide.My remarks refer to the sad state of our legal system and the fact that a citizen can be totally screwed by something as irrelevant as modifications to his gun or knife.In both cases, I am referring to external, visible mods,and the fact that such modifications may be desireable in no way reduces the potential for trouble for the carrier.

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AKTI Member #A000934
"To grow older is inevitable.To grow UP is optional"

 

[Gwinnydapooh]

I came across a great discussion about this very topic (only no mention of knives) on TFL this summer. Take a look (it starts out as a discussion of FEG clones of Browning Hi-Powers but don't worry, it goes off-topic soon

)
http://www.thefiringline.com/NonCGI/Forum1/HTML/000947.html

Basically, the issue starts as whether it's OK to disconnect a magazine safety (keeps gun from firing if the mag is out) that makes the trigger pull on these things horrible. The experts are saying that prosecutors can paint you as a vigilante looking to kill someone even if the shoot was justified because "isn't it true, sir, that you modified this weapon to make it even more dangerous? NO? How can you disconnect a device called a 'safety' and not make the gun more dangerous?"

I know it sounds stupid. I think so too. But I'm starting to wonder, because a couple of the guys who know their stuff over there had stories to tell. One guy knew of a cop who lost a wrongful death suit because he had a "trigger job" (smoothes the trigger pull so the gun is more accurate.) Yes, it's ridiculous that anybody could say that makes the gun more dangerous but they WILL.

All that said, when I get my FEG I'm disconnecting the mag safety. I can't carry it anyway, it's mostly a range gun, so I think I can explain that I was just making my range gun more accurate???
And I do modify my knives, BTW. I also use them ALL for utility in front of witnesses so if I ever get a stupid DA who requires proof that a knife can be a tool, I'll have it in spades. I don't own a knife I haven't used for utility.

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"It is not criminals who enter schools and shoot children . . ."
--Ann Pearston, British gun control apologist and Moron

 

[ghostsix]

Everyone takes the mag.safety out of the new BHP`s.You can`t get a trigger with it in.Who shoots a stock 1911?No one that I know.

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[JW]

Sadly, in today's climate, you'll be on the grill for defending youself with any weapon- modified or not. I seldom have to go into the urban jungle, but when I do- I carry an unmodified production knife that I am willing to throw away (and would if forced to use it or even display it under some circumstances). Around home and work I carry whatever I want and pray it only sees utility use.
Your district atty can be a problem, but a civil suit can be a bigger problem.
I used a handgun to stop a break in-in progress at my own farm in rural Illinois and had a couple real stressful days as a result. After my wife placed the 911 call and the perps were arrested less than 1/2mi from my place, a county dep. pulled up in the drive, asked for my weapon then READ ME MY RIGHTS! I got it back 2 days later with no charges filed, but until you find yourself in this kind of crazy situation, all this theoretical discussion is just that.

 

[Cougar Allen]

There's a lot of disinformation about legal liability. The gun magazines keep claiming reloaded ammunition is a liability issue and if you don't buy premium ammunition from their advertisers you'll go to jail and get sued for millions of dollars, but the legal people on rec.guns have searched their databases and never found a single case, criminal or civil, in which reloaded ammo was an issue.

If you get a trigger job and then have an unintended discharge the trigger job could have caused that, so that would be an issue. Likewise if you remove a "magazine safety" and then have an unintended discharge while the magazine is out of the gun.

In general, if a plaintiff or prosecuter ever says anything you can prove to be false, the jury will then doubt everything else he says, too -- so rejoice if that happens.

-Cougar Allen :{)

 

[Jim March]

I think in the case of knives, the "simplicity" of the device is such that any small ergonomic changes you make to the grip as one example will be meaningless.

Now, if you convert the outer 2" of folder spine into a double-edge, in theory they could yabber about how you've "made it more deadly".

I AM NOT A LAWYER - but, in my opinion, the way to deal with this kind of crap is to clearly label what the prosecution is up to, "smokescreen city". Focus on the justification of your weapon display/use and shrug off everything else as meaningless attempts to bolster a bad case - which most of the time, that's exactly what it'll be.

Jim