Mokume help

N

Nebulae

Joined
Aug 24, 2009
Messages
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Hey guys I need some help. I am trying to weld some quarters together and I'm not having much luck -I'm on attempt number 8. I have done this before in the past but apparently I forgot how to do it. So after exhausting all other resources, and about $20 of quarters I am beyond frustrated and humbly ask for help.

here is my process:
1 wire wheel brush the quarters clean (this actually removes metal and leaves a sand blasted look)
2 wash with soap and water
3 rinse with alcohol
4 pickle in muriatic acid
5 rinse and stack in a torque plate (have been using serious pressure with the help of a vise)
6 heat in small fire brick forge using 2 MAPP tourches. I have been looking for the sweating and have been keeping the temperature just around where the copper begins to melt, but with very little melted copper.
7 forge down

It looks like I am getting decent welds at first, but then they start delaminating when I forge them, so I don't know if the welds were bad, or if i am screwing them up with the hammer, but I think its the former. any help is appreciated thanks
 
Anyone else have any tipe or tricks that they would share for making monume? I have all the materials to make the alloys I want, but I still have to make a press. I'm going to pick up the steel tomorrow...and then the fun will begin :).
 
no flux, although I did try one run with borax coating the outside. Quarters are 92% copper 8% nickle on the inside and 75% nickle and 25% copper on the outside
 
get rid of the quarters and get some copper and nickle silver. you'll get the same look with much better work ability. you can get disks or squares from rio grande. prep in the same manner that you have been. I put my stack plates and all in a stainless envelope and soak at 1675 for 30 minutes in an oven but you should be able to heat and watch for the sweat balls on the stack.
 
Quarter mokume has a high fail rate in forging down in thickness. Those nickel alloys get work hardened quickly, and need to be constantly re-annealed. Start forging just as it gets to black heat after heating to dull red ( or dunk in water and then start forging). Quit and re-anneal as soon as it gets stiff under the hammer. Hammering too hard will fracture the grain boundaries and cause splitting.

Nickel silver and pure copper will get better results.

The book on Mokume' gane by Midgett is one of the best text on the subject. I have heard it is getting hard to find and the price is rising. His DVD, Mokume gane in the small shop is also excellent.
 
Bill Burke said:
get rid of the quarters and get some copper and nickle silver. you'll get the same look with much better work ability. you can get disks or squares from rio grande. prep in the same manner that you have been. I put my stack plates and all in a stainless envelope and soak at 1675 for 30 minutes in an oven but you should be able to heat and watch for the sweat balls on the stack.
Click to expand...

Do you add any charcoal to the SS envelop? If so, what type of charcoal do you use and is it crushed or solid? As always...TIA Teddy
 
Update: thank you Stacy for your advise on forging I think this might be my problem, we will see. On my last attempt I was very careful to anneal the piece every dozen or so blows, and so far it looks good. This makes me wonder if I really did have 8 good billets but I beat them apart.
Here is a fascinating image that shows why annealing is so important. I ground the edges of this billet smooth after welding and before forging, and look what happened. Apparently the copper is much more ductile than the nickle. This must cause huge sheering stresses that if not annealed tear the piece apart.

2013_12_17_17_02_22.jpg


sorry for the obnoxiously large image
 
Goldsmithy said:
Do you add any charcoal to the SS envelop? If so, what type of charcoal do you use and is it crushed or solid? As always...TIA Teddy
Click to expand...

I have done it both with and without charcoal in the bag. I just use whatever charcoal is at hand.
 
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