MOP,acetone, and epoxies will hurt you..

Joined
Jun 25, 2001
Messages
8,474
Originally posted by Mike Hull
using a respirator when you work that stuff. It can cause fungal infections in the lungs that are very bad.
It has a natural pesticide in it that is way stronger than anything you can buy over the counter.:eek:
the Quote is talking about iron-wood

This sparked an Idea for the knife making site.

what is dangerous in the shop by way of woods,MOP,acetone, epoxies
and the lot..not in the mechanical but the born stuff.

and what to do to keep the average maker safe from it. I know what I do,,,

I'd like input for the unwary :(
 
I have the usual resirator when grinding but when the grinder is off the heavy dust falls to the floor and the light dust get sucked into a HEPA filter that runs most of the time. My headaches almost stopped completly unless I forget to turn it on.

Someday when I make the "dream shop" I will suck dust from each machine with a vac system
 
List of Toxic Woods with a toxicity rating:
http://www.mendelu.cz/~horacek/toxic.htm

Another highly dangerous dust when breathed in even small amounts:
Abalone - the dust is "sharp" and will cut your breathing passages - had a good friend that lost his life due to this one.

Get a good chemical mask for handling any of the commercial leather dyes, cleaners (most contain Toluene amongst other nasties), and any other type of solvent, etc. - After beaucoup years of breathing all types of theses industrial chemicals without a mask I was diagnosed a couple of years ago with a severe liver disease that will most likely kill me sooner than I planned. So take heed.
 
OK Dan. I haven't posted much about this, just a sour noteor two now and then. As some of you noticed I was gone for about a year. You might have also noticed that I have been forging more and grinding a lot less and that I have been building more muzzloaders and less knives.
I have always been bad about not wearing my respirator for short jobs. Just a quick grind here or there. These always turn into longer jobs. I had a bad problem with Rosewood because of not wearing the mask and then I became so Sensitive to it I had a very bad reaction. I still sneak in a piece now and again but I look like I'm ready for space when I work it.

Anyway, a little over a year ago I was grinding a lot of elephant Ivory and horn and bone in addition to the steel. One day after grinding some I had to change the plugs in my truck. I had a coughing fit while bent over under the hood and when It was over, I noticed blood all over the place. A lot of blood that looked like a lung shot deer.

Loving doctors the way I do, I did the only smart thing. I ignored it. The attacks happened several times more but not quite as bad. I had a heart attack during muzzleloader season and when I was out some fool took me to the hospital. The doctors have no idea if the lung blood which was caused buy the ivory more than anything else they think, was related to the heart attack but the general feeling was that it was. They wanted to do more tests but by that time I was awake and strong enough to check myself out!:p

The bottom line is that most things we grind are very harmful and we as a group are less cautious about them then we should be. I now have the respirator on when I go into the grinding area for any reason.
 
Just about everything knifemakers use is hazardous. But a few simple things that folks tend to ignore;
Spalted wood, spalting is a form of fungi, and live spores can be released by grinding, which if breathed, can lead to serious lung infections, even death.

There is always the possibility of releasing virii from wood also, with the resulting health problems. Remember that a virus won't respond to antibiotics. :eek:

Super Glue fumes are highly carcinogenic, as are most epoxy fumes.

Breathing soldering fumes containing Cadmium(a heavy metal), can, over time, cause nervous system damage leading to personality changes like antisocial behavior, anger etc.

HEAVY METAL POISONING can result from breathing the dust of knife steels being ground. Chromium and vanadium are just two that come to mind. Heavy metal poisoning can mimic many other health problems. It is even hard to get a doctor to test for it, even after you tell them you work with it. The nsurance company will cancel their trip to club med if they order tests like that.

Micarta, Pakkawood, and the like contain Phenol, and Formaldehyde, both of which can cause reactions similar to taking the street drug 'PCP'. It can jack your blood pressure up to unbelieveable levels, heart palpitations etc.
Can you imagine what long term exposure will do to the body.

The long term effects of many of these things are very bad, and chances are that you will never be properly diagnosed, as doctors will only treat the symptoms.
Toxicologists are almost unheard of in most communities, so you will be on your own. :eek:

Years ago the small company I worked for moved into a brand new building. As we were a few hundred yards from a dairy, there were lots of flies. We got a popular remedy in those days(69-72), it was called the 'Shell No Pest strip'. You could get them at Shell gas stations, and it contained a fold out rectangular perforated holder with a hook at one end, and also a chemical strip that was placed inside the holder. We hung 2-3 of those in the air conditioning vents in the office, where I worked.
I started having problems with allergic reactions to things that had previously never bothered me, coffee for one( several trips to the ER before I quit), and beer for another. :eek: :eek:. I thought it was just caffiene, and switched to low octane, but had the same problems, an extreme anxiety reaction, with a type of flushing spreading up my body from the feet upwards. When it reached the upper body area, it would stop me from breathing. It was extremely frightening. I think it's called anophalectic(sp?)shock.
I had to stop beer and coffee altogether.
Other forms of alcohol bothered me but I got used to it for awhile.;)
I won't go into drinking problems here, but I no longer drink at all.

It wasn't until the 1990's that I found out quite by accident that these Shell No Pest Strips were only for use outdoors, like at backyard picnics and such.
So coupled with the nasty chemicals in the crappy new carpet that stunk to high Heaven, this stuff effecively ruined my life.

Everyone that I worked with suffered some form of problems, ranging from alcoholism(all of us), to seizures(office manager), spitting blood(the owner)). The office manager is in a nursing home, and has been since 1998, the owner of the company died several years ago. I guess I was the lucky(?) one, I got in a huge fight with the office manager, and got fired about a year before the company was sold and dissolved, so the others got longer exposure.

Take care of yourselves, nothing is worth the consequences of toxic poisoning.:eek: :barf: :mad:

I didn't realize this was soo long, sorry, time flies when you're having fun.;)
 
Spalted Maple just about did me in a few years ago.Found out it contains a fungus which affects both respiratory and nervous systems.I quess i,m from the old school [a little bit won,t hurt]Well maybe not a few times but added up over the years it can have dramatic effects so take care of your lungs..
 
Mike , first the elements that are called heavy metals are lead,cadmium,mercury ,bismuth, and copper. Others can cause problems even though they don't share the 'heavy metal' name. Nickel is carcinogenic. Your problem with allergies would probably go under the heading MCS ( multiple chemical sensitivity ). Ever increasing numbers of people have the problem . Usually it is caused by our very chemicalized environment seriously damaging the immune system.
 
Any newbies that don't believe in wearing that mask are more than welcome to come spend a day with me and see the effects of not wearing respiratory protection.

When you have to stop to catch your breath to walk across the house, can't do the simplest of tasks, and spend the better part of the day hooked up to an oxygen machine, you realize the insidious damage all these things do. I have no one to blame but myself.

Nowadays, the only way I can work in the shop is by wearing a $1000 motorized air filter (AireWare). I spend half my time cleaning to keep the dust gone.

Don't rely on a silly-ass dust mask, get yourself a good cartridge respirator with both fine dust and chemical capabilities to match the chemicals you are using. Wear gloves, too, when handling solvents and epoxies. Keep the shop clean so the dust doesn't get distributed, especially if you have kids who can get exposed. Pay heed to what Peter said... those "oh, it's just a LITTLE grinding" are the ones that do you in. One stupid incident like that with white buff compound did me in for six months.

Dan did you all a favor by starting this thread. Do yourself a favor by taking the appropriate safety precautions.......
 
After my nose surgery this past week (nothing to do with knifemaking), I quit smoking and finally got a good respirator from Home depot to use instead of the dinky one I usually use (sometimes).

After this, I think I'm going to get something like Bruce has to suck out and filter the small nasties.
 
Thank you Guys
I burnt saw dust for years for heat and my dad did also.
we'd get a load of maybe >>maple<< or Burch, or oak
but it would be a whole trailer load of about 7 cord a 20' box.
I'd use about 14 cord and he'd use a box load in about 6 weeks.
about 5 years ago My dad almost died from
a lung infection
and when the test were done they said it was a fungus
of some type??

and the biopsy resembled something found over sea's.
it seams that the molding sawdust was a problem,,, Mold
The doc told him if he fell a sleep that night before he
decided to go he would have stopped breathing and pasted away,
he lost the instinct to breath I guess the body didn't care if it did or not.
anyway it took him over a year to get better (almost but not really)
the meds they put him on made him diabetic :rolleyes: what can you do??

I'd like to hear more if only to open eyes :eek:
 
Here in this valley, during the winter, doctors do a land office business because of upper respiratory, and sinus infections.
This is caused in main part because of the many homes with wood stoves, burning various types of juniper, the most common solid fuel source here.
About 2/3rds of the population here is allergic to it(most don't know it), but it is still allowed to be burned.

When we first moved here, my wife would spend from November to May on one type of antibiotic or another. I spent most days in bed with migraine headaches, and headaches from sinus infections, plus dizzy spells.
We finally got natural gas in this area, so I swapped out the electric forced air heater for a gas version, saving many $$. This used to be one of the highest areas in the country for electricity.

When I quit using the wood stove, amazingly the headaches(most of them anyway)stopped, dizzy spells lessened. My wife hasn't had an upper respiritory infection since.

I have talked to two Doctors who said that they will not treat patients for these problems anymore, if they are using wood stoves, or fireplaces. All it does is make the patient resistant to antibiotics, without doing any good.

Some pretty common everyday things can cause problems. Be aware.
 
Originally posted by mete
Mike , first the elements that are called heavy metals are lead,cadmium,mercury ,bismuth, and copper. Others can cause problems even though they don't share the 'heavy metal' name. Nickel is carcinogenic. Your problem with allergies would probably go under the heading MCS ( multiple chemical sensitivity ). Ever increasing numbers of people have the problem . Usually it is caused by our very chemicalized environment seriously damaging the immune system.


Thanks, Mete!:D

There is a guy that comes here infrequently, username 'hso'(health safety officer). I wish he would jump in here. This type of thing is his specialty. :)
 
Several years ago I was into building a homebuilt airplane and did a lot of research (and practice) on composite airplane construction. These are primarily laminated with epoxies. I came across countless individuals that couldn't finish their composite airplanes because of epoxy allergic reactions after continual exposure during the layup process. The EAA (Experimental Aircraft Association) resource material pretty much states every one will develop an allergic reaction to epoxy with time. Some reactions are life threatening. .
Always wear latex or plastic gloves when using expoxy and try to avoid skin contact. Cleaning it up with acetone with out gloves is even worse. The Acetone will really help carry it into your system through your skin.
 
Check here for Mother of Pearl health hazards. The text is below:

Contrary to some belief, Mother of Pearl is NOT poisonous. Several rumored cases cite Mother of Pearl as the cause of severe physical problems and even death. However, not one case has been documented or proven to be true. In nearly all of the cases I have heard, the complaining parties had many other serious health problems. Usually, preexisting asthma, emphysema or allergic reactions are the cause of any health problems associated with working with Mother of Pearl. Mother or Pearl is composed of 85% calcium carbonate, 12% conchiolin, and 3% water, none of which are harmful or poisonous. The possibility of an allergic reaction does exist, but normally isn't of serious consequence or life threatening. The typical symptoms that I have heard of are nausea, vomiting, headaches, coughing, and fever. For those who are allergic or have a reaction, these symptoms can persist for up to two days. I currently know personally of only 4 or 5 knife makers, of the 500 that buy Mother of Pearl from my company, who occasionally suffer from symptoms of this type. That puts the percentage of sufferers at about 1%. This is by no means a scientific figure, but it is simply to give you, the reader, an idea of your likelihood of becoming ill from this type of work.

There is some risk involved! Ground fragments of Mother of Pearl are the equivalent of tiny glass fragments. As you can imagine, these fragments are not good for your eyes, nose, throat, and especially your lungs. Breathing pearl dust, like any other dust, can cause build up in the lungs, cause difficulty breathing, and shortness of breath. So be smart and buy a good filtration mask and wear safety glasses, preferably air tight goggles so as to prevent dust from getting into your eyes. Knife makers should wear goggles and a mask regardless of what they are grinding.
 
True, epoxy group is allergenic but the hardeners commonly used (various amines) in hand laminating are just about as bad and corrosive to boot.

Acetone or other cetones or solvents should not be used to clean skin, ordinary soap seems to be best and safest, just apply more than once.

I used to work in the composite industry for 10 years and managed to avoid sensitization. About 5% of people were allergic to epoxies (or hardeners) from the start and then asthmatics are not counted.

TLM
 
SAFETY AND RISK CODES
Translated from an italian source, so english definitions may be different.

S 1 Keep locked
S 2 Keep away from the reach of children
S 3 Keep in a fresh place
S 4 Keep away from lodgings
S 5 Keep under (approved liquid. See safety sheet)
S 6 Keep under (Inert gas. See safety sheet)
S 7 Keep in well tightened recipient.
S 8 Keep away from humidity
S 9 Keep in a well aerated place
S 12 Do not close hermetically the container
S 13 Keep away from foods and drinks
S 14 Keep away from (incompatible substances. See safety sheet)
S 15 Keep away from heat.
S 16 Keep away from open flames and sparks. Do not smoke.
S 17 Keep away from flammable substances.
S 18 Handle and open with care
S 20 Do not eat or drink during use
S 21 Do not smoke during use.
S 22 Do not breath dust.
S 23 Do not breath gases/smokes/vapours (appropriate term(s) see safety sheet)
S 24 Avoid contact with skin
S 25 Avoid contact with eyes
S 26 In case of contact with eyes, rinse with abundant water and call doctor immediately.
S 27 Immediately strip any contaminated induments.
S 28 In case of contact with skin rinse immediately with (adequate substance, see safety sheet)
S 29 Do not dump in the sewers.
S 30 Do not pour water on the product.
S 33 Avoid static charges accumulation
S 34 Avoid impact and friction.
S 35 Do not dispose of product and container without due precautions.
S 36 Use adequate protective clothing
S 37 Use adequate gloves
S 38 In case of insufficient ventilation, use a breather.
S 39 Protect eyes/face
S 40 To clean floor and objects contaminated with this product use (see safety sheet)
S 41 In case of fire/explosion do not breath smoke
S 42 During fumigation/polymerisation use appropriate breathing equipment (appropriate term, see safety sheet)
S 43 In case of fire use appropriate extinguishing methods, see safety sheet. If water increases risk, clearly state “do not use water”.
S 44 In case of illness consult doctor immediately (show label)
S 45 In case of accident or illness consult doctor immediately (show label)
S 46 In case of ingestion consult doctor immediately and show container/label
S 47 Keep at a temperature less than (see safety sheet)
S 48 Keep moistened with (see safety sheet)
S 49 Keep only in original container.
S 50 Do not mix with (see safety sheet)
S 51 Use only in well ventilated place
S 52 Do not use on vast surfaces in inhabited place.
S 53 Avoid exposure – get proper instruction before use.

S 54 Get authorization from pollution control authority before dumping in water treatment facilities.
S 55 Use the best treatment techniques available before dumping into sewers or rivers.
S 56 Dispose of this material and container in a dangerous or special waste dump facility.
S 57 Use adequate containers to avoid pollution.
S 58 Dispose as dangerous waste.
S 59 Ask information to producer for disposal/recycling.
S 60 This substance and its container should be disposed of as dangerous waste.
S 61 Do not dump in the ambient. Refer to safety sheet.
S 62 In case of ingestion do not cause vomiting, call doctor immediately.
S 63 In case of ingestion due to inhalation, keep patient away from contaminated zone and keep to rest
S 64 In case of ingestion, rinse mouth with water (only if patint is awake)



R 1 Explosive when dry
R 2 Risk of explosion due to impact, friction, sparks, flames or other sources of ignition.
R 3 Extreme risk of explosion due to impact, friction, sparks, flames or other sources of ignition.
R 4 Produces extremely sensitive explosive metallic compounds.
R 5 Danger: explosive if heated
R 6 Explosive if in contact or not in contact with air.
R 7 Can cause a fire
R 8 Can cause ignition of combustible metals
R 9 Explosive if mixed with combustible substances.
R 10 Flammable
R 11 Highly flammable
R 12 Extremely flammable
R 14 Reacts violently with water
R 15 If mixed with water releases highly flammable gases
R 16 Danger of explosion if mixed with supporters of combustion.
R 17 Spontaneously flammable with air.
R 18 May form flammable/explosive mixtures with air during use.
R 19 May form explosive peroxides.
R 20 Harmful if inhaled
R 21 Harmful in contact with skin
R 22 Harmful if ingested
R 23 Toxic if inhaled; LD50, inhaled, rat, aerosol or particle, superior to 0,25mg/liter, and less than or equal to 1mg/liter for 4 hours; LD50 inhaled, rat, gases or vapour more than 0,5 and less than or equal to 2mg/liter for 4 hours;
R 24 Toxic if in contact with skin, LD50 skin contact, rat or rabbit, more than 50 mg/kg and less than or equal to 400 mg/kg
R 25 Toxic if ingested: LD50 ingested in rat more than 25mg/kg, less than or equal to 200 mg/kg
R 26 Very toxic if inhaled: LD50, inhaled, rat, aerosol or particle, less than or equal to 25/mg/liter for 4 hours, LD 50 inhaled rat, gas or vapour, less than or equal 0,5 mg/liter for 4 hours.
R 27 Very toxic in contact with skin: LD50 skin contact, rat or rabbit, less than or equal to 50 mg/kg
R 28 Very toxic if ingested: LD50 ingested, rat, less than or equal to 25 mg/kg
R 29 Releases toxic gases in contact with water
R 30 Can become very flammable during use.
R 31 Releases toxic gases in contact with acids.
R 32 Releases extremely toxic gases in contact with acids
R 33 Danger: cumulative effects
R 34 Causes burns
R 35 Causes serious burns
R 36 Irritating for the eyes
R 37 Irritating for the throat/lungs
R 38 Irritating for skin
R 39 Danger of extremely serious irreversible effects.
R 40 May cause cancer: insufficient proof
R 41 Risk of serious eye injury
R 42 May sensitize if inhaled
R 43 May sensitize if in contact with skin
R 44 Danger of explosion if heated in small spaces
R 45 May cause cancer
R 46 May cause ereditary genetic alterations
R 47 May cause congenital malformations
R 48 Danger of serious risk for health in case of prolonged exposure
R 49 May cause cancer if inhaled
R 50 Highly toxic for water life
R 51 Toxic for water life
R 52 Noxious for water life
R 53 May cause long term damage to water environment.
R 54 Toxic for plants
R 55 Toxic for animals
R 56 Toxic for ground organisms
R 57 Toxic for bees
R 58 May have long term effects on environment
R 59 Dangerous for ozone
R 60 May reduce fertility
R 61 May cause harm to unborn children
R 62 Possible risk of reduced fertility
R 63 Possible risk of harm for unborn children
R 64 Possible risk for lactating children
R 65 Harmful: may cause lung damage if swallowed.
R 66 Repeated exposure may cause skin dryness and cracking
R 67 Inhaling vapors may cause sleepiness and vertigo.
R 68 Possible irreversible effects.
 
:eek: OK I quit no more knives it's to dangerous:eek:
I need to find some clean air, and
something that's fit to eat:confused: :D :D
are you kidding
what a way to die .I'll die with a smile on my face
or is that the other thing I like to do:confused: :) :D why yes
:D :D

edited to add,, be safe guys your kids need you...
 
Ok, y'all are making me quite nervous.

What kind of respirators is everybody using?

I work outdoors, and do not use a dust collector, etc.

Dan
 
Originally posted by pendentive
Ok, y'all are making me quite nervous.

What kind of respirators is everybody using?

Dan

At the moment, I'm using a 3-M 6000 series half face respirator, with #6109 two stage(organic vapor/formaldehyde)cartridges. That will protec you whan grinding Micarta, pakkawood etc.
The regular organic vapor cartridges won't protect against formaldehyde, which is off gassed when grinding phenolic resin materials.

When doing the above, try to keep the dust off your skin, as phenol, and formaldehyde can absorb through the skin.
Give yourself a good vacuuming after grinding.

BTW; That type of two stage cartridge is available from any company that supplies respirators, I just find that the 3-M is easy to get replacements for.
Make sure to get the cotton prefilters, and the adapters that hold them over your cartridges. They will last a lot longer that way. And store your CLEANED respirator/cartridges in a ziploc bag, that will also prolong the life of the cartridges. :)
 
This has come up a few times in the past, but the problem is - no pics...my imagination suffers...


Here's a pic of me 'n mine:

mug03.jpg




IIRC, ddavelarsen uses a crazy space-alien system...I'm not sure I wanna go that far. And, I don't use micarta, pakkawood, etc. Nor do I use any toxic woods like rosewood, etc.


Is what I've got good enough? Just need the good (HEPA) filters?

Dan
 
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