Morality and Knife Design

Andrew, excellent post. Beautiful dog, too!

You nailed it right here:

If you're designing knives to be used in violence then you should be able to rationalise and justify that within your moral system or you shouldn't really be doing it. Furthermore if your knives are not designed with the intent of being used for violence then you should still grasp the possibility that they innately still have a high effectiveness in violence if used in such a manner, regardless of the designer's wishes. In this case you should still be able to rationalise and justify this potential outcome within your moral compass. many designers would say that refusing to recognise this potential ethical issue is inherently irresponsible.

At the end of the day, I am not judging Mr. Maringer (too harshly). I understand fully that there IS a difference between there being a possible scenario in your mind, and the visceral reality of that scenario coming to pass. I took a look at Mr. Maringer's work on his site and found all of it beautiful, so he is clearly an artisan of note. Frankly, I am glad that there are makers out there who continue to design knives with SD purposes in mind. I can only imagine how many people carry such a knife and can feel safer as a result, who might live in jurisdictions where they can't carry a firearm.
 
Andrew, excellent post. Beautiful dog, too!

You nailed it right here:



At the end of the day, I am not judging Mr. Maringer (too harshly). I understand fully that there IS a difference between there being a possible scenario in your mind, and the visceral reality of that scenario coming to pass. I took a look at Mr. Maringer's work on his site and found all of it beautiful, so he is clearly an artisan of note. Frankly, I am glad that there are makers out there who continue to design knives with SD purposes in mind. I can only imagine how many people carry such a knife and can feel safer as a result, who might live in jurisdictions where they can't carry a firearm.

Absolutely all of this. I hope I, too, didn't sound too harsh in my earlier posts. Knives AS weapons are just fine with me, seriously, more power to those makers. I don't know if I own any, but I own some pretty dang big folders that might be hard to justify for simple utility work. :p

No judgment to Mr. Maringer whatsoever. It's in fact better that he did get out for awhile, if that's what happened to his conscience. Good move.

I just see it as the difference between designing a handgun, vs. designing a hunting rifle, if you will. (And again, both absolutely have their place).

Heck, the Vorpal deployment system thing looks useful and cool, to me.
 
I can promise you there is a huge gap between making the weapon and knowing it's been used. I've experienced it, when at a knife show in Las Vegas in 2003 a gentleman walked up to my table and told me that one of his teammates asked him to tell me that "one of my knives saved his life twice at Tora Bora, and he blooded it both times." With that, he turned and walked away, leaving me to get my head around what he just said. Of course I designed the knife to do exactly what it did, but reality is at a different level and you experience an emotional rush that's difficult to describe. I will say this without hesitation, guilt or issues of conscience weren't involved. My thoughts had more to do with knowing exactly how the knife performed and what could improve it. We were and we remain at war with people who have killed our citizens and want to kill more of us. Anything I can contribute that will deter that is what keeps me in the shop. The simple fact is that the money isn't what draws people to making knives. It's passion for the craft and seeing a purpose in what you're doing. Granted, some are content in making and selling as many sharp items as they can. Others, and I like to think I'm one of them, look at the technology of knives and do what they can to make them better and more serviceable than those made before. "Cutting flesh" isn't one of them. Kitchen knives cut flesh better than anything made for other purposes. Knifemaking is a poor business, and rarely do makers earn what they could having a real job earning what they are likely able to earn doing anything else. I've always contended that behind every successful knifemaker is a wife with a real job, because at best and for the very best of us, getting started is a serious struggle and it takes many years to develop the skills and reputation needed to sell what you can make. There is a morality involved, but it has to do with making honest knives, and not the politics which are much of what this discussion is about. I'll go back to what I described of what I was told in Las Vegas. "It saved his life twice..." What else matters? That "it was blooded" simply means it did what it needed to do to effect the former. I'm proud it served its purpose and I take pride in making weapons for those who need them to protect themselves and others. I work hard at that. I spend many long hours studying how knives are used, what can make them more effective, and how I can improve on the last knife I made with subtle changes that will make the next one work better. Maybe this will put it in perspective. While by most standards I'm likely considered a successful knifemaker, I could not begin to feed, clothe, house, and educate my family on what I earn doing that. Thankfully, my wife has a real job and supports me in doing what I do.

If I have a moral issue, it is with those who sit in comfortable offices, live is lavish homes, and drive expensive cars while making moral judgements on those who risk their lives to make that possible, and questioning whether those people deserve the best weaponry they can carry while doing that. Some of these are my customers, buying the collector versions of what I make, but the knives of which I'm most proud have Micarta handles and are made to kill people.

There is a lot more to the Tom Maringer story than has been discussed here, and I won't go into it, but Tom's experience and mine were very different and his was much more profound.
 
I have purposely not posted in this thread and have started to read some of the comments. I just feel that knives are knives and they can be used for many purposes. I don't attribute moral concerns with a design except perhaps some of the home made sharpies that people in prison are said to make with available materials. Their purpose is very clear to me like a "saturaday night special"... one use and get rid of it. Ultimately, a knife is a tool that can be used for many purposes. But I do pay attention to people's reactions to knives that I might use in my business as I really have no intention of causing someone concern when I pull out a knife to cut something as part of the job.
 
I will say this without hesitation, guilt or issues of conscience weren't involved. My thoughts had more to do with knowing exactly how the knife performed and what could improve it.

This I totally understand.

If I have a moral issue, it is with those who sit in comfortable offices, live is lavish homes, and drive expensive cars while making moral judgements on those who risk their lives to make that possible, and questioning whether those people deserve the best weaponry they can carry while doing that. Some of these are my customers, buying the collector versions of what I make, but the knives of which I'm most proud have Micarta handles and are made to kill people.

And this I totally agree with.

I only have one of your knives, and although I don't think it was designed as a weapon I could be wrong. It's a great knife either way, wish I had two but I can't find them anymore. :p
 
The enormity of the effect that something like this can have on a designer can not be overstated. As jerry said, he was thoroughly overwhelmed by the news that his work had saved a life. Tom Maringer clearly had an incredibly intense experience as a result.

I am reminded of a story I was told by a lecturer at university, whose husband was involved in the development of the micro-uzi in the 80's, a variant on the popular firearm. He was mad about guns, totally committed and fine with the notion of his weapons being used to kill by whoever could afford such a gun. However, this changed in 2008 when an 8 year old boy accidentally shot and killed himself while using this weapon. While it's easy to say that the gun was obviously not intended to be used in this manner, he took it personally as he saw it as a direct result of his failure to design the weapon with a more mass at the front to reduce recoil and avoid this lethal occurence of muzzle climb. In this instance, he was highly motivated to change the design, but was no longer connected to the team in charge of developing the new and improved uzi-pro. This left him with no chance of personal redemption in his eyes and opened himself up to all the other guilt from the use of "his weapon" in cartel drug wars, executions etc. From what I understand he is currently being treated for PTSD, even though he was never actually involved in any of these experiences.

It's 3 in the morning here, I'm off to go ride the snoozemoose, but I'm gunna continue this once I'm up.
 
I have only read the first page and last on this so pardon me if this mirrors anyone elses comments, but I make knives because i love them and want other people who love them to get what i consider the best product i can make for them to use as they see fit. Most of my customers are military and i expect that they are looking for a good "hard use" knife to be a reliable tool for them to do whatever they may need it to. Most of the time that will be mundane tasks and so be it, but f that tool happens to be used to inflict injury on another person, i accept that it was what they deemed nessesary at the time for that piece of equipment and i am glad it could serve them as required in that given situation. Will I feel bad about it? NEVER!
 
I would say to design whatever you feel is the best knife you can. Any knife, *even a butterknife*, can become a deadly weapon in the right hands. You can literally drive yourself crazy trying to consider all the evil ways that the wrong person can use one of your knives for. You can't control what other people will do with inanimate objects. Why not design with consideration for what potential good it can accomplish in the right hands?

Also, what is purely a weapon is very subjective. I personally do not view the Spyderco Harpy or Tasman Salt as primarily weapons, even though they are specialized blade designs. I often carry and use my SE Tasman (and have EDc'd a Harpy in the past), and have found many uses for them that do NOT involve 'disemboweling' other people. To most people, ANY knife will look like a weapon, especially a pattern like a hawkbill that is unfamiliar to them, or they think looks more intimidating. That doesn't take away the very real utility that the knife offers and, the vast majority of the time, that it's used for.

Jim
 
Also, what is purely a weapon is very subjective. I personally do not view the Spyderco Harpy or Tasman Salt as primarily weapons, even though they are specialized blade designs. I often carry and use my SE Tasman (and have EDc'd a Harpy in the past), and have found many uses for them that do NOT involve 'disemboweling' other people.

Firstly, I feel it warrants mentioning that a weapon doesn't need to be used against humans, this is just where the majority of ethical issues lie. A pig sticker is still a weapon.
I would definitely not see either of these hawkbill blades as purely weapons. While I understand that many "talon" knives such as karambits are characterised as being highly lethal, they're really highly practical. Both the indonesian karambit and western hawkbills originated as agrarian peasant tools and have found uses cutting cord, performing plant rimming, harvesting produce like a sickle and for high performance pull cutting on a chopping board etc. All of these defensive uses came much later and while these knives may excel at grabbing and ripping through flesh, they almost completely forgo any stabbing capability due to the curve of the blade. In fact upon contemplation I'm not sure that any knife can be seen as purely a weapon. Such a knife would have to be optimized for violent use to a huge extent, until it becomes impractical for any utility cutting. I'm really struggling to thing of an example like that. Perhaps the triangular trench spike? As it has no real ability to cut, only to stab through hard materials such as helmets or skulls? But then again, these were also used to open cans by soldiers, so there's that out the window. I think that stabbing knives which have very little ability to cut might fall into this pure weapon category.
Historical thrusting weapons like epees and foils, then pipe knives for bleeding out pigs and specialised daggers like this one:
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I guess it cuts both ways really (no pun intended). While it's hard to remove the weapon potential from a tool knife it's just as hard to remove the tool potential from a weapon knife.
 
While it's hard to remove the weapon potential from a tool knife it's just as hard to remove the tool potential from a weapon knife.

Some become questionable tools, but I'm reminded of a requirement expressed to me by a special forces soldier years ago. At the end of our chat he said, "oh yeah, it also needs to be able to skin an antelope because we don't get supplies like normal people." I took "antelope" to be code for someone's stolen goat but the point was taken that the knife must remain a useful tool because it will more often be a tool than a weapon, and that might be where this discussion hinges - the fine line between fantasy and reality.
 
Knives are tools. As such, they join hundreds of other inanimate objects throughout human existence that have been utilized to kill: fire, cars, hammers, axes, baseball bats, explosives, aircraft... the list goes on. I'm quite certain the first stone knives made by our Homo erectus ancestors were used as hunting or food preparation tools long before the first murder was committed with one. Knives do not have morality; people do. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, the fact the Nazis used barbed wire in their concentration camps doesn't make barbed wire immoral.

If making "dedicated weapon" knives makes a knifemaker uneasy, then of course he has every right to to create such knives and more power to him. But that doesn't make his knives (or him) more moral than the next maker or user.
 
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Some become questionable tools, but I'm reminded of a requirement expressed to me by a special forces soldier years ago. At the end of our chat he said, "oh yeah, it also needs to be able to skin an antelope because we don't get supplies like normal people." I took "antelope" to be code for someone's stolen goat but the point was taken that the knife must remain a useful tool because it will more often be a tool than a weapon, and that might be where this discussion hinges - the fine line between fantasy and reality.

That's actually a very good comment about knives. I am in the tool camp generally. But sometimes fantasy and reality get blurred depending on the situations we are thrust into. I just don't attach moral judgements on a knife in general. If I owned a firearm that was stolen and used in a crime, I would have absolutely no feelings what so ever relative to the gun other than someone stole it.

I might look at a fantasy piece and say "what the heck is that going to be used for?"... Answer, wall hanger in most cases. But I suppose there is some idiot out there that is going to use his Clingon thingie and attack someone in a dark alley. That still doesn't make the fantasy knife inherently evil or bad.

Machetes are a good design that can be and are used both as a tool and weapon. Neither use makes them evil, but it makes the person doing the evil act evil. Still a moral judgement as my evil may not be the same as your evil...
 
I might look at a fantasy piece and say "what the heck is that going to be used for?"... Answer, wall hanger in most cases. But I suppose there is some idiot out there that is going to use his Clingon thingie and attack someone in a dark alley. That still doesn't make the fantasy knife inherently evil or bad.

Sir, I feel compelled to point out it is spelled "Klingon." They are a proud and noble race.
 
Knifemaking is a poor business, and rarely do makers earn what they could having a real job earning what they are likely able to earn doing anything else. I've always contended that behind every successful knifemaker is a wife with a real job, because at best and for the very best of us, getting started is a serious struggle and it takes many years to develop the skills and reputation needed to sell what you can make.

Well said.
 
Andrew, excellent post. Beautiful dog, too!

You nailed it right here:



At the end of the day, I am not judging Mr. Maringer (too harshly). I understand fully that there IS a difference between there being a possible scenario in your mind, and the visceral reality of that scenario coming to pass. I took a look at Mr. Maringer's work on his site and found all of it beautiful, so he is clearly an artisan of note. Frankly, I am glad that there are makers out there who continue to design knives with SD purposes in mind. I can only imagine how many people carry such a knife and can feel safer as a result, who might live in jurisdictions where they can't carry a firearm.

I prefer my EDC blades to be (at least in part) large and scary because of the defensive potential. I figure that if a knife looks like it was designed to kill or is so big most people can mistake it for a sword that two things will happen first that it's use as a tool will be enhanced. And second, if I'm ever in a position where I'm about to get fucked, a big scary knife will could help defuse the situation, and if it fails to do that I'll be easier to defend my self with a Cold Steel XL tanto Voyager than a peanut knife.

The police can't stop an intruder, mugger, or stalker from hurting you. They can pursue him only after he has hurt or killed you. Protecting yourself from harm is your responsibility, and you are far less likely to be hurt in a neighborhood of gun owners than in one of disarmed citizens – even if you don't own a gun yourself.
– Harry Browne
 
You guys may be putting too much stock in the "intent" of knives.

There ain't none. Knives just are. Whether they are weapons, tools or works of art lies solely with the human being in whose hands it rests.
 
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