More Dangerous...Sharp Knives or Heat Treat Foil??

Dr.Lathe

Dr.Lathe

Joined
Aug 4, 1999
Messages
2,596
I just finished another heat treat session and my hands are covered in Band Aids
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I brought a pair of Kevlar gloves home from work but couldn't wear the damn things will trying to cut the foil, fold the bags etc
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Does anyone else have this problem?? I think that I might bring my next roll of foil to work and sheer it in strips to make it more managable??
Now I know that many of you are going to say.... send your blades to Paul Bos!! The thought crosses my mind everytime I do this
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However... I actually enjoy the process after the blades are wrapped!!
Neil

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Talonite....Stellite...


blackwoodknives.com
 
How about a resealable heat treat box?

My Momma always told me: "Keep your fingers away from the sharp side, Forrest"
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Sola Fide
 
Hi Neil, i bet a few of those band aids have my name on them
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Thanks for treating the D2, they came out very nice.


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"Never hit a man unless you must, but if you must, knock him down" Teddy Roosevelt.

www.lameyknives.com
 
Neil: After doing my own HT for a few years now, I only get cut occasionally.
Are you using a good quality wallpaper seam sealer to seal the creases? this will help you not get cut so much.

RJ
 
Well Neil, then here's the other reason to send them to Paul. I still have scars from when I did my own. I used to bleed on all my knives; now I do on just half of them.
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When you take those blades out of the oven after hardening, it is important to get fast and even cooling to prevent grain growth and an uneven structure. I found that the foil prevented that from happening. It tends to insulate the blades, keeping the heat in and preventing them from coming to room temperature as fast as possible. Paul does this by using an atmospherically controlled oven filled with argon (I think) and rapidly purging it with cool air at the end of the cycle.

And at $60 for 20 blades, he's almost as cheap as the cost of the foil and electricity needed to do your own.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
 
Hi Neil,
Those foil edges are razor sharp. I get nicked once in a while. I cut mine with scissors then fold it in half to make an envelope. I lay a straight edge about 1/2" back from the edges I want to fold over to make the seams and then I slip a thin putty knife under the foil and bend it up to the straight edge all along the seam. Then I carefully fold the bent-up edge down and roll it with a roller to seal it good. Then I fold it over again with my fingers to make a double seam and roll it. I do the narrow ends of the envelope the same way. I even double seam the original fold to streghthen the envelope.
I make my envelopes as long as possible. That way I can cut the end off, tip the knife out to quench holding the other end with pliers on the seam. Then you have your ready made envelpope to re-use with only one end to crimp each time. I can re-use each envelope until it gets to short for any of my blades.
I try to cut the end of the envelope and get the knife out into the quench as fast possible especially with carbon steel.
Hope this might work for some other makers.
Jeff
 
Paul's shop is within the Buck Knife facilities in El Cajon, CA

Paul Bos Heat Treating
1900 Weld Blvd
El Cajon, CA 92020

His home phone number is 619-445-4740. (It's impossible to get him on the phone in the shop.

PaulBos@buckknives.com



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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
 
sure cure.....pump in nitrogen and forget that stupid foil......or you can send them to paul
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HEs THE Best!
 
I agree. Paul Bos is awesome!!! But I think you want to keep everything in house, right, Neil? In that case, I applaud you. You are brave for working with that foil! Hmmm..if its that sharp, would it make a good knife???
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Mike,
A resealable heat treat box sounds good but I think Jerry brought up a good point about the knives needing rapid air quench. I only do 4-6 blades at a time. This allows me to pull them one at a time from the rack while the others remain at temp. I have a special process to RIP the bag open VERY fast and I "press quench" most of my blades. The ones with taperd tangs and blades go into a special aluminum block (heat sink) that sits in front of a fan.
Matt's knives were so DAMN big compared to mine...... That's another story
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I never even MADE a knife with 1/4" material
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RJ,
I use a roller to seal the bags and sometimes my ball pien hammer on my anvil if the bag needs a little more persuasion!!
Fall,
The way I open my bags, they could NOT be re-used. Maybe it's the foil I'm using but D2 at 1850+... it comes out of my oven WAY to "crunchy" to use again. I might try that with my next A2 run!!
Gerry,
Pauls shop is inside the Buck factory?? So much for HIS electric bill
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Cool deal!! I actually heat treat many of my blades at my full time job. They get a little upset when I fire up an oven large enough for a forklift to load just to run a few knife blades!!!!! If I time it right my knives run with tooling at the same temps.
Taz,
I will always do my own heat treating. Like I said, other than the foil cuts, I enjoy it as much as any other part of knifemaking.
Neil

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Talonite....Stellite...


blackwoodknives.com
 
The way I see it if you don't heat treat your own blades you mite as well have someone else make the knives too.
It is THE most important part.

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Edward Randall Schott

Let the future tell the
truth and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments.
The present is theirs, the future, for which I really worked, is mine".
Nikoli Tesla EdwardRSchott@aol.com

www.angelfire.com/ct/schottknives/
 
Sounds like you have everything covered but the pain, Neil. The wide variation in sizes (most of my blades won't fit in most knifemakers heat treating ovens) and all tapered tangs make quench plates pretty impractical for my knives. I understand you can bleed argon into your oven as a purge, but obviously that gets compromised as soon as you open the oven to remove a blade. I used to us a hammer and anvil with a double crimp to seal the pouches. I also put a cigarette butt inside to burn off the residual oxygen. That had the added benefit of inflating the pouch, so getting the blade out was a little easier.

You want to make my knives, Ed? That is an absolutely silly statement.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
 
Heat treating foil used to come with a seam tool when you bought a roll.
It dont now. Suff is nasty sharp.


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Web Site At www.darrelralph.com
NEW WEB SITE TAKE A LOOK!!!!!!!!!
New projects and pics to look at !!!!
 
gotta agree with ed.....Heat Treat IS the most important part....thats why I send my knives to a guy whose GAGES cost far more than any hobby heat treat oven....who has Iconel boxes that he sticks INSIDE his h/t ovens that cost twice as much as any hobby heat treat oven.....how does NOTHING but custom knives and custom tool and die work, and who is almost 60 and has been doing it longer than most of the people reading this have been alive.
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[This message has been edited by tom mayo (edited 11-05-2000).]
 
Thanks Tom for reminding me, and telling every one im an old fart. Neil Heat Treating is fun. Paul.
 
I do my own heat treat, wouldnt have it any other way, however I have heard nothing but good about Paul, and if my furnace burns out while I have a batch you can bet I wouldnt hesitate to send them to him. Try some thin cotton gardening type gloves Neil, I use them sometimes, but usually end up just doing the wrap barehanded, and living with the cuts. My hands are always cut up, I do a bunch of heat treat for other makers....

Tom, you seem to think we cant heat treat as good? I like the control I have in my own shop, and can get as fast a quench as I want, one blade at a time!

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www.simonichknives.com

[This message has been edited by Rob Simonich (edited 11-05-2000).]
 
Rob, I don't think Tom was saying that. Certainly there are others, besides Paul, who can do some great heat treating. I can't. Even if I ignore the fact that my oven is 14", meaning I couldn't do my bowies or swords, I was just never able to quench quickly or evenly enough to get results comparable to what Paul gives me. I'm sure I still have some scar to prove I tried.

On top of that, many of the CPM's need to be hardened above 2000 degrees where that foil falls apart, and that means technology I didn't have.

Clearly Neil has worked out a method to get good results. I'm sure you have as well. I was objecting to the notion that you weren't really a knifemaker if you didn't temper your own blades. I think Tom was making that point as well since he sent me the link to this thread.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
The Tom & Jerry Show
 
<< I was objecting to the notion that you weren't really a knifemaker if you didn't temper your own blades.>>

I agree with Jerry. There is no way I can do the kind of work Paul does. I will never have the heat treating equipment or experience he has. I recognize that and prefer to use his services rather than turn out a knife of lesser quality because the heat treating is less than the best.

Paul has done some of my blades and I am very pleased with the results.
 
Gents: To clarify a few points:
1) Heat treat foil is available for temps up to 2400F.
2) With press quenching, I can achieve a faster quench rate than almost any other process used in a vacuum or inert atmosphere furnace (without having to screw with removing the blades from the foil).
3) As to temperature control, with proper monitoring and calibration, I achieve +-5 degrees at any temperature I need to hold.

Having said that, I AM NOT saying that having someone else do your blades is bad/worse/whatever. I AM saying that it is possible to achieve EXTREMELY GOOD CONTROL without turning the process over to someone else.

Have a nice day...

RJ Martin
 
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