More mystery from (perhaps) Japan

t1mpani

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Jun 6, 2002
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Well, I'm back, and seeking yet more sage advice from the gurus here. Same friend as before on the tanto paid $80 for this and wants to know what--if anything--he has. I've included a number of shots, but please tell me if there's any angle or detail that needs to be covered better. Near as I can tell, there is no marking of any kind on the tang. The handle peg is horn, the collars it goes through are bone (and the larger one is split in half). It looks to me like this was once a larger sword and has been cut down, looking at the tang. Is there any way of telling anything about this just looking at profiles, grinds, etc.? Supposedly was a grandfather's war trophy---not an uncommon story, I know, but as the other items (from the same collection) turned out to be legitimate, I thought there was a chance here. Many thanks, as always, for the vast stores of knowledge here. :)
Warren
 
Well, I think you probably have a find there. ;)

What I really want to see is straight down the back of the blade, to see if it's hand-forged. The mune or mid-ridge on the back of a machine made blade will be perfectly straight, while one forged by a human will wander a bit. However, from what I've seen, I would be surprised to find a machine-made blade in those mountings.

Machine made blades in WW2 gunto mountings...another matter.

Not being signed just means that your sword wasn't the work of a traditional master, or (as you suggest) might have been shortened. Not all swords in feudal (or modern) japan were signed. However, your sword does have a boshi, hamon and yokote...all features indicative of a real nihonto sword. The provenance that you have, although anecdotal, does support what you suggest. At the very least...you have something worth much more than $80. Good job.

Caveat: Zoom Rabbit is a cook, not a professional swordsmith or dealer, :D If he is wrong about this, one of the aforementioned actual sword guys will come in about now and set us straight.
 
Well, tomorrow evening I can pull out the real camera and see if we can't get a manual-focused shot (the iPhone doesn't understand what I'm asking it to look at) but you may have already answered it...unfortunately, the mid-ridge looks awfully perfect/clean/straight. Possibly a machine-made sword cleverly passed off to an unsuspecting veteran, especially (now that I think about it) since there are three holes in the tang instead of just one. Anyway, I'll try to pop a decent shot of the spine tomorrow.
 
Well, tomorrow evening I can pull out the real camera and see if we can't get a manual-focused shot (the iPhone doesn't understand what I'm asking it to look at).
Unless the object is far away or the lighting is poor, I never had much trouble getting the iPhone to focus in on something by tapping on it on the screen. Old phone?
 
No, fairly new but reflective object with an inside curve---the lighting is hard to get right, it just keeps bouncing focus all over the place.
 
I don't want to post as a guru or set anyone straight, but...

I would not hesitate to say this is an actual Japanese sword, looks to be a wakizashi but no measurements are given.

It is O-Suriage or greatly shortened, so it may or may not have been signed, no way to no for sure. Trying to guess at the age is difficult as you must speculate on the original sugata, the photos do not reveal a true color or depth in the nakago, there is no visible hada or hamon.

Not much else to gain from these nakago photos.

I personally see no hada or hamon or boshi in these photos. I do see a yokote, but when looking at both sides they appear different. The yokote looks out of line as well as does the ko-shinogi and the bo-hi on the ura side. The omote looks better, but all of this could be due to the angle of the photos, lighting, my computer screen, etc., etc.

Looking down the spine at the mune (ridge) won't tell you anything other than whether or not the polisher was worth his salt.
Professional Japanese polishing leaves straight, crisp lines.

The mekugi (Peg) does appear to be horn, but the hatome (collar) is most likely ivory.
But they could be bone, as the photos are inadequate to say.

You should know that putting your fingers on the blade is Japanese sword blasphemy. It should never be done, even though the polish is in poor condition, the oils and acids from you skin will only make it worse.
 
No, fairly new but reflective object with an inside curve---the lighting is hard to get right, it just keeps bouncing focus all over the place.
Oh yes, reflective objects. In that case, simply tap on the table the sword is resting on. So long as they're roughly the same distance, it should come into focus.
 
Real camera/light tent will come out tonight or tomorrow---as to fingers on the blade I know, it was wiped off with the mineral oil rag as soon as I'd finished snapping shots. More to come, and thanks as always. :)
 
Looking down the spine at the mune (ridge) won't tell you anything other than whether or not the polisher was worth his salt.
Professional Japanese polishing leaves straight, crisp lines.

This is what I mean:
010414-1625_zpsb5f61a70.jpg

Machine made blade with straight mune. The center line is parallel to the other two.

010414-1626_zps330bb983.jpg

Hand-forged blade. The mune does not take a perfectly straight path relative to the edges of the blade...

*(Bows)*
 
Actually, that sword in the second picture is simply bent. As has been said, a properly polished and maintained sword does not wander back and forth like this...
 
Actually, that sword in the second picture is simply bent. As has been said, a properly polished and maintained sword does not wander back and forth like this...

Really? :confused:

I think you're jumping to a conclusion there. I don't want to bust your bubble, but the sword I'm looking at is not bent; it's freaking hand-forged. If you're having trouble with the poor quality of my pictures, that's one thing...but there's no reason to insult my sword.

Tympani, don't let these guys dissuade you. You have an antique japanese sword, 90% probability. I've run into this before on Sword Forum (which is why I no longer post there.) They're the experts and you can't possibly have the real thing...period. Well, the reality is that they do indeed turn up on a regular basis, right here in the USA. Grandpa's barn is where many of these historical treasures are to be found.
 
My best swords, and those I have been privileged to see, from high-reputation makers, are much more geometric in line, be it straight or curved, than those by lesser makers. It's hard to forge a curve into a blade and have it look like a continuous curve rather than a series of straight sections or the have it straight to the eye when that is the objective. Masters of forging can do it. In the U.S., Scagle usually accomplished the task, if over much shorter lengths.

The swords our troops looted from Japan were often in storage with fittings separate. Many of those fittings (most?) were looted separately from their swords. The blades came home in what might be called, in English, storage cases - like what you have.

(I went to school with a Ken Watanabe.)
 
Okay, here is the first of three posts on this thread (the pauses in between are just because BF makes you wait between posting)

Dimensions:
Overall length (in a straight line, not following curve): 24.4 inches
Length from point to blade/tang transition at spine (again not following curve): 18.6 inches
Blade width at widest point: 1.1 inches
Blade width at yokote: 0.65 inches
Max blade thickness: 0.25 inches

Disclaimer: I hate taking pictures. I hate taking pictures of shiny objects even more. I hate taking pictures of shiny objects that take up nearly my entire light box even more still because my options of moving/rotating them to make best use of the light are slim.

All of that said, I tried to provide some redundancy so that you--who know what you're looking for--can possibly make use of a couple of angles. The yokote (I'm looking these up on another page as I refer to them) does in fact seem to be a tad off. There seems to me to be a hamon, but the blade's polish isn't such that I can really see it well--I could, I suppose, do a bit of a scratch test with a screwdriver along the spine and at the edge shoulder and see if there seems to be a difference in hardness; given all of the old, poorly-done attempts at cleaning up it seems to have suffered, I doubt another small scratch or two would matter. On that front, I was thinking seriously of soaking this thing in Evaporust (very mild oxidation remover) as I don't think that active, angry-red rust qualifies as "patina" but rather as cancer. If there are better methods I'm all ears.

If there are any specific requests for additional shots, I will try to accommodate them. I ask my gurus to remember, please, that I'm neither a speaker of Japanese nor an aficionado of the Japanese sword (else I wouldn't be picking your brains on this subject) so please consider using phrases like "no, the OTHER side dummy" and "need a shot about seven inches back from the point" as opposed to the very correct terminology which forces me to flip back and forth between three separate pages and become greatly confused by what exactly it is I'm trying to take a picture of. :D

 
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Okay, this was supposed to be a series of shots going from one end of the blade to the other on both sides. I lost the shot of the point going one direction (corrupted file) so that's why it's missing.

 
Don't quite know where to start.

Perhaps I was not clear before. Yes, this is a Japanese sword 100%.

18.6" nagasa (Length from point to blade/tang transition at spine in a straight line) = Wakizashi

No, do not soak the nakago(tang) in anything ! If you must, you can take a piece of heavy cloth (denim, course cotton) rub the tang to remove some of the active "red" rust, boning will work also. Then wipe it with a soft cloth with a little oil on it.

No, do not scratch it with a screwdriver. Some of the newer photos seem to show a hamon. The hamon is likely there, If you want to know for sure send it to a polisher and have them polish a window. Do not attempt to polish it yourself, no buffers, no hand sanding, nothing.

If you put your fingers on the blade, wipe it with denatured alcohol first to remove oils and acids, then wipe with an oiled rag.

Being hand forged has nothing to do with whether it has ever been bent or that the mune ridge wanders. ALL genuine Japanese swords are "Hand Forged". They can be bent, broken and poorly polished. Again, WHEN PROPERLY POLISHED THE LINES WILL BE STRAIGHT AND CRISP !!

So, yes it is real, but nothing fancy, nothing valuable, just a mediocre, out of polish, suriage (shortened) wakizashi. Restoration would most likely cost more than it would be worth when done. I would advise you to keep it oiled and enjoy it for what it is.

Hope this helps.
 
Don't quite know where to start.

Perhaps I was not clear before. Yes, this is a Japanese sword 100%.

18.6" nagasa (Length from point to blade/tang transition at spine in a straight line) = Wakizashi

No, do not soak the nakago(tang) in anything ! If you must, you can take a piece of heavy cloth (denim, course cotton) rub the tang to remove some of the active "red" rust, boning will work also. Then wipe it with a soft cloth with a little oil on it.

No, do not scratch it with a screwdriver. Some of the newer photos seem to show a hamon. The hamon is likely there, If you want to know for sure send it to a polisher and have them polish a window. Do not attempt to polish it yourself, no buffers, no hand sanding, nothing.

If you put your fingers on the blade, wipe it with denatured alcohol first to remove oils and acids, then wipe with an oiled rag.

Being hand forged has nothing to do with whether it has ever been bent or that the mune ridge wanders. ALL genuine Japanese swords are "Hand Forged". They can be bent, broken and poorly polished. Again, WHEN PROPERLY POLISHED THE LINES WILL BE STRAIGHT AND CRISP !!

So, yes it is real, but nothing fancy, nothing valuable, just a mediocre, out of polish, suriage (shortened) wakizashi. Restoration would most likely cost more than it would be worth when done. I would advise you to keep it oiled and enjoy it for what it is.

Hope this helps.

I would second this advice and agree with most all of it. You sir, seem to know what you are talking about judging from your terminology and picture of a gi. (Hamon, menuki, Tsuba) Tameshigiri, iaido/quickdraw?
If you feel the need to do anything to your sword (I myself am OCD about my blades and keeping them pristine and free from rust so they do not pit) I advice using ballistol gun cleaner to clean the blade. Spray liberally on the entire blade and wipe over surface area with a soft rag, then wipe excess off with a soft rag. Hoppes weathergaurd is a good oil for preventing rust after using ballistol (for the blade, NOT the wooden scabbard or handle). For most pocket knives I use Remoil, but DO NOT use for anything with leather or wood, because Remoil contains petroleum distillates. (just FYI - petroleum distillates will darken leather and stain wood, this is the reason I say this) That being said, Remoil is one of the best cleaners I have used for leaving behind a thin layer of silicon (which repels water). (This is not the traditional approach, however it works wonders on steels. I am not a fan of using traditional cleaning methods for my swords and knives. It just was not how I was thought to care for blades.) One thing to keep in your mind is ballistol is safe and good for use on the steel **as well** as the wood of your sword, and will weatherproof it. (You will find all of these in an aerosol spray at most gun specialty stores. (Well worth the investment for care)
To take of the rust on the tang of the sword (if you choose to go that route yourself) Use a Metal Finishing pad, a green brillo pad, and a 1000 wet/dry paper to finish. The metal finish pad will remove the surface rust, the green kitchen pad will work the finish to more of a satin, and the 1000 wet/dry (very fine black finish paper) will give it a good finish. (since the rust is on the tang, it will be covered up anyways once the sword is assembled.) If you leave the tang in the condition it is in now, it will begin to pit and get worse. I would advise removing the rust from the tang at least, so the condition of the whole blade does not deteriorate in the future. However, that is just my advise. FYI - changing the condition of the blade in anyway shape or form WILL effect the historic value of the blade. Either way. Feel free to do whatever you want. Beautiful one handed sword you have there. (wakizashi) :thumbup:
 
Is there a hamon? Could you post a close up picture of the hamon if there is one?

I couldn't get a better shot of it than what I put up---it seems like there is one, but I can't really capture it.

I'll leave the cleaning/restoration choices up to the owner, but again I'm thankful for the input! :)
 
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