more novice questions

[daveinvegas]

Since I live in an apartment I obviously can’t produce knife blades however, I may have found a location where I can at least do some grinding so I could use the stock removal method to make knife blades.

Some of you have indicated that I should move on from kit blades and begin producing my own blades. I would eventually like to be considered a knife maker as opposed to a knife assembler.

That being said, I have a question or two about grinders and grinding. I have searched the forum and didn’t locate what I was looking for so if this has been answered previously I apologize.

My questions involve hollow ground blades. I watched an episode about knives and swords and how they are made on the HistoryChannel.

One of the things that I observed was a method that a commercial knife company used to hollow grind blades.

The company used what appeared to be two grinders facing each other, wheel to wheel; a technician placed a blade between the two grinding wheels from the top of the wheels and withdrew the blade while raising the handle portion as he withdrew the blade so that the grind would follow the contour of the edge of the blade.

This then produced a symmetrical grind on both sides of the blade simultaneously.

I’m big on symmetry and I like that method. So, my question is do custom knife makers use this method to hollow grind blades and if not, why not?

If so, what equipment do you use? Would it be possible to use opposing grinders to accomplish this?

Next question: at a knife show several years ago I saw a huge Bowie that had been made from a rasp. The teeth had been almost ground off but not entirely so that it was obvious that a rasp had been used for the blade. The knife was highly polished; it was beautiful. Since that time several years ago I have desired to make a knife from a file or rasp but only recently considered it possible to do so.

After reading several posts/threads here about using files for blades I am embarrassed to admit that I am still somewhat confused as to the procedure or steps involved. I apologize but sometimes I’m a little slow on the uptake and I am still mystified about heat treating and tempering steel.

What I am looking for is a concise tutorial to produce a knife blade from a file.

If someone wouldn’t mind explaining the process/procedure again one more time I would appreciate it.

Once I am able to produce knife blades from files I am planning to mark the blades. I found this: http://www.img-electromark.com/blog.php

What do ya’ll think?

 

[P.Brewster]

I've heard about the double-wheel grinder that production companies use. Based on the website literature, I believe Buck has some of these grinders that are fully automated (CNC). I'm sure other production companies also have automated set-ups.

At the Ashokan seminar, Dan M. (can't remember his last name) talked about his experience working with Cold Steel & Camilus (and/or Ontario). He said they had a pair of CNC knife grinders; one for each side of the blade. If I understood correctly, these grinders were used for flat grinds, and were set-up symmetrically.

Most custom knife makers do not use automated set-ups; many consider the use of guides/jigs to be "cheating," while those on the Dark Side (forgers) see stock-removal as cheating. Guides and jigs are great if you want every knife to look the same, and if you value the outcome more than the art of the knife-making process. Many knife-makers strive to make knives that are truly hand-make, and one-of-a-kind. I think personality, philosophy, and skill play a big role. For example, I use fixtures to grind my spikes and knives. Why? I want them to all look the same. I want them to be 99% symmetric. I want them to be as affordable as possible. But most importantly, it is simply in my nature to approach a fabrication task with the powers of my mind first, and the powers of my heart second.

On the other hand, take a look at my first three reasons. Now here is where skill comes into play. IF I had the skill to freehand-grind 20 spikes that were nearly identical, that were 99% symmetric, and were affordable.... I would.

Like most machines, rigidity is (perhaps) the #1 factor. Setting up a double-wheel grinder may be as simple as placing two opposing KMGs on one base.

Regarding the file-knife, I don't know of any tutorial.

Aside from that, I'll pass on some advice that I picked-up here:

take things one at a time. First focus on turning a piece of steel into a KSO (knife-shaped object). Then worry about heat-treating, handles, sheaths, and finishing.

 

[daveinvegas]

I want them to be 99% symmetric. I want them to be as affordable as possible. But most importantly, it is simply in my nature to approach a fabrication task with the powers of my mind first, and the powers of my heart second.

Aside from that, I'll pass on some advice that I picked-up here:

take things one at a time. First focus on turning a piece of steel into a KSO (knife-shaped object). Then worry about heat-treating, handles, sheaths, and finishing.

Thanks, that last part make tons of sense. Maybe I'll just make a load of KSOs for a while.

You mention symmetry . . . That's one reason I occasionally use a router to radius the edges of some of the handles I make. Both sides are exactly the same. I am obsessive/compulsive about symmetry.

When I first started drafting I did everything by hand and I took great pride in producing a set of drawings that looked like a machine had done it. Obviously I used straight edges and other tools to draw (I am artistically deficient and I can't draw freehand). Oddly enough, I can shape a set of 1911 grips on a belt sander by eye, create a smooth flowing curve on the edge of a Kydex sheath..

However, since I have been using CAD for the last couple of decades my drawings are done to perfection. I've sort of gotten used to that. So, to that end I use jigs and guides in my work (of course some things absolutely require a jig). I even use CAD to produce templates for Kydex holsters and stick em the Kydex and sand down to the lines so each holster will be identical (because I sell them on ebay I don't want them to look like they were made by hand in my kitchen, which is exactly where I make them ).

I have even created 3-D models of objects I am going to produce so I can see what the object will look like and to obtain exact dimensions before I even start on it (you can see one in my photo album).

Thanks for your comments.

 

[James_Terrio]

This thread has a lot of answers about file knives. It's especially handy for folks who don't have a HT system, as you're taking advantage of the fact that they're already hardened. Naturally, if/when you do have a forge or kiln, you can anneal and re-harden them as you see fit.

Start with one that's good quality. I've had good luck with Nicholson and Simmonds brands.

Basically all you need to do is temper a file in the kitchen oven so it's not so brittle, soften the tang with a torch so you can drill it, and "grind away everything that doesn't look like a knife." I've made a few and have no qualms about guaranteeing them.

 

[Patrickknives]

You can make a knive in an apartment using hand tools. To get a better idea of the mechanics of knife making you may consider buying a couple of good files, hacksaw and some sand paper. This will give you a basis to move to the next step.

 

[B.V.]

Hey Dave, I live here in Las Vegas. Lets go grab some lunch sometime. My cell number is 595-0353.

 

[daveinvegas]

Aside from that, I'll pass on some advice that I picked-up here:

take things one at a time. First focus on turning a piece of steel into a KSO (knife-shaped object). Then worry about heat-treating, handles, sheaths, and finishing.

Does this qualify as a "KSO"?

Well, that wasn't so difficult.

James, I suppose you were correct,; you just grind it with the right tools and polish it and kazzam, a knife blade.


Kidding aside, this took me two hours just to get this far.


And of course, I wasn't able to match the other side and now all I have is a ruined file. But, it was instructive.

 

[James_Terrio]

If you want to practice a couple of KSO's, grab a bar of mild "welding" steel next time you're at the hardware store. A couple dollars will get you enough to make several KSO's.

 

[daveinvegas]

Hey Dave, I live here in Las Vegas. Lets go grab some lunch sometime. My cell number is 595-0353.

Hey, I called. Got voice mail. I'll try again.

 

[SteelSlaver]

The rasp knife was probably forged to shape and then ground. Forging will not completely remove the teeth marks from the piece even on a regular file. t will distort them but, mostly just move the marks. Part of the art of knife making is being able to make both sides match. A big help to me was learning that once I was close to do work my weak side first on each step and then use my strong side to match it. Have fun Jim

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

But most importantly, it is simply in my nature to approach a fabrication task with the powers of my mind first, and the powers of my heart second.

Hell yeah.

It doesn't take long before you realize you can make something that is better than the production knives. When you start you look at the "perfection" of those production knives and wonder how you could possibly make something better than that by hand. After a couple years you look at those same production knives and wonder why they don't try harder to make a better product. Wavy grinds, overly thick tips (on knives where it isn't appropriate) crappy balance from leaving too much steel in areas it isn't needed, gaps, washed out lines, thick edges, soft steel etc. And these are the production knives.

There are some who approach handmade knives completely by hand, and make wonderful knives. There are others who approach hand made knives completely by hand because they don't have the tools or skills to operate those tools - then spin the fact their knives are completely handmade as something that makes them special. To each their own. My perspective is that the quality of the finished object justifies whatever process is used to create it. How well is it made and how well does it work? If you make better knives using jigs and mechanisms, then good. If your jigs prevent you from achieving the geometry you want - that is a problem. It probably makes no difference at first because you're still learning about the geometry.

Knifemakeing is fun. And it is exhilarating the first time you make something that cuts better and works better than anything you have ever bought at a store.

The steel and HT in a good file is good stuff. If you temper it back a little bit (say, HRC 60 instead of 65) it is great stuff for a knife blade and a wonderful way to get a start. If you do it right (get it thin and don't overheat it), that file knife will outcut anything in your kitchen or hunting drawer, and 90% of the crappy stainless with crappy HT that is 90% of the kit knives. How cool is that.

 

[James_Terrio]

. A big help to me was learning that once I was close to do work my weak side first on each step and then use my strong side to match it.

I've never forged anything, but I believe that advice applies to stock-removal as well. If forces you to pay attention to detail.

Hell yeah.It doesn't take long before you realize you can make something that is better than the production knives... My perspective is that the quality of the finished object justifies whatever process is used to create it. How well is it made and how well does it work?

Amen, brother! I don't use jigs because my brain just doesn't work that way. I don't use a mill or CNC machine, because I don't know how. But I have no problem with folks who do. If someone can produce a convex grind with a full distal taper on a "machine", I applaud thier skill. And if they invite me to thier shop to see how, I'll bring the coffee and donuts, because I love to learn from people with more skills and talent than I have.

The proof is in the pudding. Not to open a can of worms, but I feel the same way about carbon steel vs. tool steel vs. stainless. Each material has its strengths and weakness. Just as each technique has something even a dumb guy like me can learn from.

I don't buy the spiritual mumbo-jumbo some makers try to put out about forging... don't tell me that one guy's hammer and anvil has more "soul" than another guy's fingers holding his steel against a belt. To me, that's utter nonsense. That's not to say I don't respect and admire the skill it takes to forge a blade! I just don't think either way is more "artful" or "better" just because of a particular technique.

Does anyone honestly think a cutler in the Viking age would have turned his nose up at a belt-grinder or an accurately-controlled forge or kiln? Hell no! And if he did, his competitor would have chuckled, embraced the advantage, and made more blades, faster with the same or better quality. Same goes for CNC or any other high-tech method; if a maker is producing an excellent knife that performs beautifully, who am I to say it's not "right"? I don't care if he used lasers or a campfire and a flat rock. The finished knife either performs as it should, or it doesn't.

MANY methods have been proven to make excellent knives and tools. Romanticism is best reserved for dealings with women and children, where emotion is truly important.

The steel and HT in a good file is good stuff. If you temper it back a little bit (say, HRC 60 instead of 65) it is great stuff for a knife blade and a wonderful way to get a start. If you do it right (get it thin and don't overheat it), that file knife will outcut anything in your kitchen or hunting drawer, and 90% of the crappy stainless with crappy HT that is 90% of the kit knives. How cool is that.

I absolutely agree.