Mosaic Damascus process question

G

Gosolo

Joined
Sep 17, 2020
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So, when you have created the mosaic bar stock and cut it up into tiles for welding, how important is it to coat the inside of the mild steel wrap that surrounds the tiles with white out?
I figured I would coat it but thought I would ask those of you who have done it multiple times.
Thanks!
 
I wish FIF would take all the White-Out off the set. They continually say it is a bad idea but have a case of it in the supplies room. If people would not see that over and over again, we might get White-Out to go away along with myths like edge packing and "Steel has a memory".

What really gets me is that the show says shows what a bad idea it is, and clearly shows how it rarely makes for a clean billet extraction, but often makes a bad billet .... and people still use it.

I know that there are folks who swear by it, but it is a bad idea.
Making a foil liner from a sheet of HT foil is the way to go. Measure the inside of the canister and make the 8 cuts needed so it will fold up and fit inside the canister. It is really simple.

I drew a template that shows how simple it is to make.
 

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No interest in fighting, here, but years ago, I heard it said that if you ask 10 blacksmiths how to dosomething, you'll get 12 different answers.
So....here's a slightly different answer: I've used KILZ primer instead of white out on the inside of my cans, and the billets sometimes just drop out of the can when cut open. One thingI've noticed, however, is that sometimes, when using powdered steel in the can, if I'm not careful/gentle enough during the forge welding and initialdrawing out, the very outside of the billet can open up into small cracks that would probably not happen if the powdered steel had welded itself to the can.
 
I don't have a dog in this fight either because I haven't made a canister yet, and I'm not looking to pick an argument. But please, when you seasoned & respected makers say things like "it's the dumbest idea ever" ( D DevinT ) and "it is a bad idea" ( Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith ) without qualifying exactly why it is a terrible idea your perspectives aren't as helpful to newbies like me as they could be. Like I said, I have zero experience on the topic but I love to learn what to do and what not to do, but more importantly why certain methods do or do not live up to the hype. Why is White Out, or other titanium dioxide containing medium inferior to the ways you prefer?

And thank you for sharing your experiences. :)
 
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I don't worry about the can. By the time I have forged it out the can is paper thin and disappears when I grind out the blade. Also due to carbon migration the can has absorbed carbon.
With whiteout the can needs to come off and that can be a big problem.
Try it both ways and decide for yourself.
 
I have had consistently good results using white out on my cans . St st heat treat foil is expensive. From what I recall, when they had failures on FIF with white out it was because it had not been allowed to fully dry. As for not using any barrier at all and grinding it off, I already spend too much time grinding, grinding, grinding…
If there’s a simple step that can reduce grinding, I’m in favor of it.
I also have a tendency, when someone says, “that’s the dumbest thing ever…”
to disregard everything that person says, unless it’s qualified and explained.
 
Doesn't used HT foil work good for lining canisters? I've read that, but not tried it yet. I tend to use a vertical can since I've got some sq tubing here with 1/8" walls. I know that's thinner than most folks recommend, but by the time I've got the billet forged out it's just about gone. Once I've got the billet ground enough to clean up it's totally gone and I've wasted very little of the billet itself due to grinding and scale.

I've only done 3 or 4 canisters so problems might show up later.
 
I dunno about the "dumbest idea ever"...

I'd say that pouring gasoline on a lit fire, from an open pitcher while wearing rayon that has been smeared with Vaseline, with a freshly oiled Jerry curl, is probably a worse idea.

I get where you're coming from though, there are better methods for dealing with a canister for sure!
 
I have had several very heated discussions with “safety professionals” regarding why my welders do not wear those plastic safety vests, lol
 
Gosolo said:
I have had consistently good results using white out on my cans . St st heat treat foil is expensive. From what I recall, when they had failures on FIF with white out it was because it had not been allowed to fully dry. As for not using any barrier at all and grinding it off, I already spend too much time grinding, grinding, grinding…
If there’s a simple step that can reduce grinding, I’m in favor of it.
I also have a tendency, when someone says, “that’s the dumbest thing ever…”
to disregard everything that person says, unless it’s qualified and explained.
Click to expand...
You’re certainly welcome to disregard everything I say.

Hoss
 
I'm not saying that it won't work, and I know that many smiths use it. I am saying that leaving the canister uncoated is a better idea. To explain read on....


The issues about why not to use White-Out, and the benefits of not using it are:

1) White-Out requires COMPLETE drying before adding any metals. If not, it will migrate into the metals and prohibit welding. Even if the migration is only a small distance, this will create a path for cracks to form in later drawing out of the billet. Kilz is a thicker coating of the same type material containing titanium dioxide. Most folks put it on and soon after start filling the canister.
If you used one or the other and let them fully dry (6 hours to overnight) they will work, but the canister without a coating is actually better ... read on.

2) You should weld the entire billet up and draw it out before doing anything to the canister. The can gets thinner and thinner as the billet is solidified, welded, and drawn out. This end up with a very thin layer of soft steel to grind off in cleaning up the billet.

3) If the canister is solidly welded to the billet that indicates that the billet is solidly welded together inside, also. This means no chance of opening the cannister too soon and having to restart the billet over again.

4) Because the canister stays on throughout the entire process of welding and drawing out of the billet, no oxygen reaches the billet during this process. This ensures the billet to be decarb and scale free and as dense and fault free as possible. It also prevents scale being forged into the billet during drawing out causing flaws and cold shuts later on.

5) A few minutes on the surface grinder or on a flat platen with a 36 grit belt will remove all the remaining canister from the flats, leaving a good surface to inspect and start forging your blades.
Normally you don't even worry about the edges as they will grind or saw away in the profiling.

6) For those who want to slide the billet out before drawing significantly (as in mosaic damascus), using a HT foil liner will make adhesion of the canister much less likely. Use new foil for ease of folding inside the canister. It is only a few cents worth of foil. If you use a standard size canister, you can pre-cut a stack of liners, put them inside, and the canisters are ready whenever you are. A flat piece of wood helps smooth the foil inside the canister.
 
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Thank you, Stacy.

I hadn’t considered point #4. Makes sense, but wouldn’t using foil create the same environment as titanium dioxide with respect to point #4?
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I'm not saying that it won't work, and I know that many smiths use it. I am saying that leaving the canister uncoated is a better idea. To explain read on....


The issues about why not to use White-Out, and the benefits of not using it are:

1) White-Out requires COMPLETE drying before adding any metals. If not, it will migrate into the metals and prohibit welding. Even if the migration is only a small distance, this will create a path for cracks to form in later drawing out of the billet. Kilz is a thicker coating of the same type material containing titanium dioxide. Most folks put it on and soon after start filling the canister.
If you used one or the other and let them fully dry (6 hours to overnight) they will work, but the canister without a coating is actually better ... read on.

2) You weld the entire billet up and draw it out before doing anything to the canister. The can gets thinner and thinner as the billet is solidified, welded, and drawn out. This end up with a very thin layer of soft steel to grind off in cleaning up the billet.

3) If the canister is solidly welded to the billet that indicates that the billet is solidly welded together inside, also. This means no chance of opening the cannister too soon and having to restart the billet over again.

4) Because the canister stays on throughout the entire process of welding and drawing out of the billet, no oxygen reaches the billet during this process. This ensures the billet to be decarb and scale free and as dense and fault free as possible. It also prevents scale being forged into the billet during drawing out causing flaws and cold shuts later on.

5) A few minutes on the surface grinder or on a flat platen with a 36 grit belt will remove all the remaining canister from the flats, leaving a good surface to inspect and start forging your blades.
Normally you don't even worry about the edges as they will grind or saw away in the profiling.

6) For those who want to slide the billet out before drawing significantly (as in mosaic damascus), using a HT foil liner will make adhesion of the canister much less likely. Use new foil for ease of folding inside the canister. It is only a few cents worth of foil. If you use a standard size canister, you can pre-cut a stack of liners, put them inside, and the canisters are ready whenever you are. A flat piece of wood helps smooth the foil inside the canister.
Click to expand...
Thank you Stacy, for the details. This makes perfect sense and I will be trying it this way
 
Titanium normally melts at ~3000’ degrees. When titanium is in contact with steel at high temperatures a eutectic is created and causes the titanium to melt at a much lower temperature, around 1900’ degrees. When in contact with stainless steel it is even lower at around 1700’ degrees.

I’m not sure how stable titanium dioxide is at high temperatures but most oxides are not stable at high temperatures.

Any pattern welded material should be clean and stay clean during the forge welding process, the idea of putting a foreign material in a can at high temperatures doesn’t make sense to me.

FIF contestants routinely have problems with crumbling billets, cans sticking, bad welds etc while using white-out. As brother Lewis pointed out, by the time the billet is forged out, the can is very thin. Lots of smiths would have benefited from leaving the can on for better toughness through the testing also.

The can will also provide another color/line to the material when you cut and restack.

The risk out-ways the reward, just not necessary to use it.

Hoss
 
DevinT said:
Titanium normally melts at ~3000’ degrees. When titanium is in contact with steel at high temperatures a eutectic is created and causes the titanium to melt at a much lower temperature, around 1900’ degrees. When in contact with stainless steel it is even lower at around 1700’ degrees.

I’m not sure how stable titanium dioxide is at high temperatures but most oxides are not stable at high temperatures.

Any pattern welded material should be clean and stay clean during the forge welding process, the idea of putting a foreign material in a can at high temperatures doesn’t make sense to me.

FIF contestants routinely have problems with crumbling billets, cans sticking, bad welds etc while using white-out. As brother Lewis pointed out, by the time the billet is forged out, the can is very thin. Lots of smiths would have benefited from leaving the can on for better toughness through the testing also.

The can will also provide another color/line to the material when you cut and restack.

The risk out-ways the reward, just not necessary to use it.

Hoss
Click to expand...
This one is for mosaic tiles, so not planning on any additional stacking. I was contemplating a go-mai with a1095 core and some nickel between that and the outside mosaic, but think I will leave that for another one. I would be a little concerned about losing too much of the mosaic if I draw it too thin…
 
Bühlmann said:
Thank you, Stacy.

I hadn’t considered point #4. Makes sense, but wouldn’t using foil create the same environment as titanium dioxide with respect to point #4?
Click to expand...
I can't see how stainless foil would affect the billet in any way. It may stick to the outside, but being only a few thousandths thick, it will grind off quickly and easily.
 
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