Mountain Lions and paranoia, a few thoughts

L

Lawrence Helm

Joined
Jul 24, 2014
Messages
328
In my local paper this morning is a report of a couple of recent Mountain Lion attacks. In regard to the most recent one there is a small map attached to the article showing the attack and where I live and hike is on the map -- not too far away. Some of my photos show the mountains near me. Up over on the other side about 15 minutes away by Jeep is where another attack occurred.

I know all about coyotes but it wasn't until a ran into a couple of scientists a couple of years ago trapping rodents to check for an infectious disease that I began thinking seriously about Mountain Lions. They had seen tracks near where I often hike. While no one precisely said anything to me, I have gotten looks suggesting that I am being a bit paranoid by having a gun and a knife on my belt. But "a Marine is always prepared" my drill instructor taught me and there really are Mountain Lions out there.

There were several "precautions" recommended in this morning's article. Included were "Do not hike alone, go in groups," and "Keep dogs on a leash and carry small dogs." That is just not going to happen. Instead I am "prepared" -- well, mostly. It was after hearing of the Mountain Lion track in my hiking territory that I began looking for more formidable knives; hence the Beckers. In the past I carried larger caliber handguns but now carry only the 22 because it would be adequate for coyotes if I actually had to shoot one. It wouldn't be adequate for a Mountain Lion; however

On the other hand, Mountain Lions seem to hunt at night; so do I really want to carry a heavier hand gun for a threat not likely to occur? I keep forgetting to mention my hiking stick. I made a bunch a few years ago and have a pretty good one. It might look like a weapon to a Mountain Lion. Also, my Rhodesian Ridgeback is about 30 inches at the withers and weighs about 120 pounds. The paper lists male Mountain Lions as weighing from 130 to 150 pounds and females from 65 to 90 pounds. Probably only the larger males would be a threat to Ben. Any of them would be a threat to 20.3 pound Duffy. However as often as we hike I hope he is trail-wise enough to stick close to me if anything smells large and sharp-toothed. Also, the reports are attacks against herd animals kept unguarded in corals and large properties. Hikers are not listed as being on the diet of Mountain Lions, and hikers with hiking sticks, knives, guns and at least one large dog even less so I would imagine.

I'm not inclined to do or carry anything different than what I'm doing and carrying now. I wouldn't shoot a Mountain Lion with my 22 but I might fire it hoping to scare it off if something unexpected happened. Should I carry a larger caliber handgun? I have a relatively light-weight 9mm, a CA75 P-01. I could carry that. I also have a relatively small 357 which I carried when I first retired. I'll think some more about those two.

As to knives. I just a couple of days ago got a different sheath for my BK7. This sheath is well made but seems to large for the BK7; after trying it out it does the one thing the better-quality Skystorm sheath doesn't do. It lets me whip the BK7 out in a hurry. The snap keeps it from rattling in the sheath so I'll be trying it out on a hike in the near future.

On two occasions, once by a coyote protecting a den and another by a German Shepherd protecting his owner, Ben was chased off. His default action is to run to me and then turn around to face the challenge. If he did that in the presence of a Mountain Lion I would have my hiking stick in my left hand and perhaps the BK7 in my right. Probably a Mountain Lion wouldn't be afraid of us but he would recognize that he might be hurt if he pushed things.

So, it seems to me, I'm really not paranoid. :)

Lawrence
 
Having a dog like that would probably be pretty helpful to deter a mountain lion. Also to detect one.

A mountain lion won't face off with a dog like that and a person. In fact it would probably know you guys were there and take off before you even got close. Especially if it smelled Ben.

Rhodesians are awesome dogs. The ones I've met have been very friendly.
 
Lots of cougars (four-legged) in Alberta, but they rarely attack people. Most often they go after people's dogs, not people. However, there was an incident near Canmore a few years back where a jogger, stupidly out running after cougar sighting warnings were posted, got killed by the big cat. An acquaintance of mine in Bella Coola, a couple of decades ago, a wildlife control guy, was attacked by a feeble diseased old cougar. He peeled it off his back and finished it with his 110. Best advice is to carry a can of bear spray, don't take Fifi with you in known cougar country, and carry a big stick or trekking pole. I've never seen a cougar in the wild in 40+ years in Canada,. You're in more danger driving on the highway than hiking in the bush.
 
I would think if hit by a .22 bullet, in the face, shoulders, or anywhere for that matter would put a stop to a show down with a mountain lion.
Lions that are bent on killing and eating usually attack from behind and hold their prey with their claws and bite the back of the head and neck. Kinda hard to prepare for that.
stay vigilant.
 
Chalet said:
Having a dog like that would probably be pretty helpful to deter a mountain lion. Also to detect one.

A mountain lion won't face off with a dog like that and a person. In fact it would probably know you guys were there and take off before you even got close. Especially if it smelled Ben.

Rhodesians are awesome dogs. The ones I've met have been very friendly.
Click to expand...

Weren't rhodesians bred as lion hunting dogs? =)
 
Hey Ed, you're right about lots of cougars in Alberta, there was also the teenaged girl that got attacked this spring (near Canmore I believe); her sister beat the cat off of her.

You also need to realize that cougars are ambush predators; they'll rarely square up with you and attack you head on, instead waiting for you to pass by and then pounce. Not really known for sprinting, so it won't be the same situation as coyotes (where your dog is pursued by the attacker and draws it to you). A more likely scenario is that you pass the cat unnoticed and it pounces on you back. Hopefully your dog will be helpful in that situation to scare it away if it does attack.

(Of course all these are just very general guidelines, so who knows what a specific cat will do out in the wild...)

I have been thinking a bit about cougar attacks as well, especially while hiking with my 7 yr. old daughter. Seems like if they're hungry enough, and the situation is right, they'll attack just about anything. I always make sure I have a knife with me (even if its just a folder), make noise, and be vigilant when hiking. In some instances, wearing a backpack has slowed down attacks from behind, so my daughter always wears her daypack out. Other than that, you seem well prepared, with a walking stick, knife,and firearm for defense. Since any attack would be close quarters, I'm not sure if a larger caliber would be any more helpful in these kinds of situations? (my gut says no, buy then I'm not allowed to carry handguns in the woods anyways so I have zero experience with that...) From what I've read, it seems that if you're able to fend off the initial attack, most of the time the cat will spook and run off. That's where hopefully your ridgeback would come to the rescue if you were pounced on from behind. Other than that, it's just doing what you're supposed to do in the wilderness - make noise, be aware of your surroundings, make safe decisions - and continue on enjoying your hikes. Just my 2 cents. Be safe out there :)
 
If I have to shoot something, I don't intend to "scare it off". If the situation has reached the point where I have to discharge a firearm, my intention will be to STOP it, preferably DRT, not scare it. I don't give things a second chance to take my fuzzy tail out.

So, IMNSHO, anything a .22 can do, a 1911 can do better. With a .22/.25/.38/380/9mm, unless you hit something immediately disabling (brain, spine, heart), the odds are you're just going to piss off what ever is "threatening" you. A .40/.45/.50 will mess up whatever it hits. Yes, a 1911 weighs more than a .22/.38, but for me, the extra 1/2 pound is negligible in the overall scheme of things. I also prefer a (( 9 ^ 7) & (16 & 11)) combo as opposed to a Buck 103 only.
 
zzyzzogeton said:
If I have to shoot something, I don't intend to "scare it off". If the situation has reached the point where I have to discharge a firearm, my intention will be to STOP it, preferably DRT, not scare it. I don't give things a second chance to take my fuzzy tail out.

So, IMNSHO, anything a .22 can do, a 1911 can do better. With a .22/.25/.38/380/9mm, unless you hit something immediately disabling (brain, spine, heart), the odds are you're just going to piss off what ever is "threatening" you. A .40/.45/.50 will mess up whatever it hits. Yes, a 1911 weighs more than a .22/.38, but for me, the extra 1/2 pound is negligible in the overall scheme of things. I also prefer a (( 9 ^ 7) & (16 & 11)) combo as opposed to a Buck 103 only.
Click to expand...

You have a fuzzy tail?

Well, I've discharged my 22 once when a coyote was guarding a den and kept coming out to lead Ben away. Ben would chase it. It would run and then come back out. This happened several times before I fired into the trees above the coyote's head. He stayed away a bit longer and I got Ben interested in going on with the hike. The coyote did come out again but by then he was only a tiny dot and Ben didn't see him. I like the coyotes. They discourage inexperienced hikers. :cool:

As to Mountain Lions I don't want to get them into trouble if I an avoid it. I'm prepared to protect the furry tails of my dogs, but killing anything would be a last resort. :peaceful:

Lawrence
 
I'm not sure you have much to worry about, Mr. Helm. Rhodesian Ridgebacks have a history in lion hunting. ;)
 
I'm going to hike no matter what. I'm not worried about me, and yes Ben can handle himself in most situations. I'm not worried about him either. It is only Duffy that I worry about. My very-sick-wife wanted a lap dog. She wanted it to be as small as possible. I knew that when she deteriorated to a certain point he would become my dog, knew all about the hiking risks and campaigned for one as large and competent as possible. That compromise resulted in Duffy. Actually, he is almost perfect. His one fault is that he weighs between 20 and 25 pounds. He doesn't stray too far from me on a hike but a coyote could conceivably, if he were hungry enough, try to drag him off. I saw a Youtube video of that happening to a Chihuahua where the Chihuahua's struggle gave his Rottweiler buddy time to catch up to the coyote. In our case Ben would have to play the role of the Rottweiler, and if Ben was off chasing a rabbit then I would have to do it. If the coyote's role was played by a Mountain Lion the lion could run with Duffy in its mouth faster than I could. Duffy probably couldn't struggle enough to slow it down. I would never catch up. Hopefully Ben could.

I was just remembering or perhaps imagining people saying or thinking I was carrying more defensive gear than I needed. The article in this morning's paper said to me who knows I might need it.

Lawrence
 
zzyzzogeton said:
If I have to shoot something, I don't intend to "scare it off". If the situation has reached the point where I have to discharge a firearm, my intention will be to STOP it, preferably DRT, not scare it. I don't give things a second chance to take my fuzzy tail out.

So, IMNSHO, anything a .22 can do, a 1911 can do better. With a .22/.25/.38/380/9mm, unless you hit something immediately disabling (brain, spine, heart), the odds are you're just going to piss off what ever is "threatening" you. A .40/.45/.50 will mess up whatever it hits. Yes, a 1911 weighs more than a .22/.38, but for me, the extra 1/2 pound is negligible in the overall scheme of things. I also prefer a (( 9 ^ 7) & (16 & 11)) combo as opposed to a Buck 103 only.
Click to expand...

I was a rifle instructor at Camp Pendleton after I got back from Korea. When I worked for McDonnell Douglas in Long Beach I just to go the Long Beach Police Pistol range at least once a week with a friend. I could average in the high 90s at 25 yards and in the high 80s at 50 yards with two of my guns, the S&W 357 model 19 with a 2 1/2 inch barrel and a Colt Trooper 357 with a 6 inch barrel. My brother-in-law is a gun nut who was in the Border Patrol. He got new guns the way a lot of people get new knives. The 40 became popular when law-enforcement started using it. But my gun-buying days were over before that happened. A 357 will "mess up whatever it hits" and will take down any game running in the lower 48. I never fired a 44 magnum or a 50. My son wanted to buy me a 454 Casull once but I couldn't see the sense in it. There was no place to shoot it and unless one put in a lot of hours shooting one couldn't be sure of hitting anything with it. The small caliber you can hit your target with is better than a larger caliber with so much kick you can't hold it steady. I spent a lot of time with the 357 and it is adequate in my opinion.

But knowing all that I still can't see myself pulling a gun in any of the scenarios I can imagine. The sneaky little back-biting Mountain Lion isn't going to charge me head on, probably isn't going to charge me at all, but at close quarters I would try to fend with the hiking stick in my left hand and use the knife on my belt on my right side. Besides, adults probably hunt only at night. A yearling might try something in the day time and not be too adept at it -- wouldn't want to hurt one of those if I didn't have to.

When I was doing a lot of free-diving and people when they heard about it invariably asked if I wasn't afraid of sharks, I would give them various answers, but if truth be told I always thought I was the most dangerous thing down there. I had a spear-gun with a 4-foot-long spear-pointed 1/4 inch stainless steel shaft that would go through anything down there. I'd hunted enough so that I didn't miss very often. Maybe if I carried my 357 S&W I could say the same thing now. I started out carrying the 357 when I first retired here, then carried a 380 for a while but never liked it & switched back to the 357. Since nothing dangerous threatened me or mine after 15 years of hiking the region I switched to the Walther 22. I haven't shot it all that much so I'm almost certainly more accurate with the 357, but . . . it makes a loud noise. :D

When I began reexamining all my gear and before I got off onto a knife-tangent I thought about my guns. I got a lighter-weight holster for my CZ75-P-01 (which I have never had the occasion to fire at all. :shame: ). Perhaps what I should get is a different holster for my 357. I have to let whatever gun I'm carrying ride on the left side of my belt and I'm right handed. Maybe a cross-draw for the 357 if they make one.

FYI my loaded Walther in holster weighs 1.25 pounds. My CZ75 P01 in holster weighs 2.3 pounds. And my S&W model 19 357 in holster weighs 2.7 pounds.

Lawrence
 
cschol said:
I would think if hit by a .22 bullet, in the face, shoulders, or anywhere for that matter would put a stop to a show down with a mountain lion.
Lions that are bent on killing and eating usually attack from behind and hold their prey with their claws and bite the back of the head and neck. Kinda hard to prepare for that.
stay vigilant.
Click to expand...

In India, people in tiger country wear masks on the backs of their heads. It seems to work.
 
A year or two I was looking for a good data set for my data mining class, and I read the full mountain lion attack database (although I didn't end up using the data for my project). The effort was worthwhile though, as it was very interesting reading.

More or less, its all that everyone else has already said. They are primarily ambush (or opportunistic) predators, so you're not likely to really have a "stand off" with them (although it has indeed happened). Most attacks on people were from very hungry mountain lions (usually during drought years, which has made me think about camping/hiking this year in CA because of the crazy 100 year drought). Also, they tend to primarily attack people who are alone/are smaller (many people that were attacked were 5ft 6in or smaller), so going out with the dogs is probably a good idea. Although, I'm not sure all of the dogs will make it out ok from the sound of it (there are accounts of large male mountain lions killing even very large dogs like ~150lb Greater Pyraneese). I'm sure between the three of you you'd be fine.

Oh, and for the record, I've spent some time thinking about if I could find a way to incorporate a mask into my hiking/camping gear... but yeah, I can't quite seem to figure out a way to look sane while using one :p. That, mixed with the fact that I so far have always been camping/hiking in groups, and that I'm a largerish man (6ft 1in, 195lb) I feel that its really not likely enough to worry actively about other than just making good normal decisions.

Anyway, those are my random thoughts. Have fun with the hikes, they look great :).
 
ocnLogan said:
Oh, and for the record, I've spent some time thinking about if I could find a way to incorporate a mask into my hiking/camping gear... but yeah, I can't quite seem to figure out a way to look sane while using one :p.
Click to expand...

Well, there's no guarantee you'd look sane, but -----------

cougarhat1.jpg


My daughter made it up as a joke when there was some question about a cougar in the area.

Doc
 
Any cat is a master at ambush, and quiet as the grave. Just as an example, my nephew and I watched my sisters Maine Coon (a cat breed) cover 10 yards in a blink to pounce on a young Mocking Bird. The bird, not quite expert at flying yet, tried to evade the danger, but to no avail. The cat lept into the air to intercept the fledgling over a foot off the ground after crossing her front lawn. Bullseye!! :eek:

I am not suggesting a new dog, just sharing this story.
[video=youtube;CwrAXNfcgns]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwrAXNfcgns&index=2&list=PLsLS1jp38cNIhsU2Y_c4p8XVc4KpSj2uk[/video]

Cougar attacks, even on humans, are not unheard of in SoCal, you know.
http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html
 
tanglediver said:
Any cat is a master at ambush, and quiet as the grave. Just as an example, my nephew and I watched my sisters Maine Coon (a cat breed) cover 10 yards in a blink to pounce on a young Mocking Bird. The bird, not quite expert at flying yet, tried to evade the danger, but to no avail. The cat lept into the air to intercept the fledgling over a foot off the ground after crossing her front lawn. Bullseye!! :eek:

I am not suggesting a new dog, just sharing this story.
[video=youtube;CwrAXNfcgns]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwrAXNfcgns&index=2&list=PLsLS1jp38cNIhsU2Y_c4p8XVc4KpSj2uk[/video]

Cougar attacks, even on humans, are not unheard of in SoCal, you know.
http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html
Click to expand...


Great video, thanks. I investigated a lot of different breeds at one time or another thinking I might switch from the Rhodesian but the Rhodesian has a better reputation around people while at the same time being a dog a stranger wouldn't take liberties with. Also, the Rhodesian was bred to hunt lions as opposed to the Doggo who charged the lion and got badly mauled during the fight -- even though he killed it eventually. The Ridgeback being a hound has a reputation for badgering game rather than closing with it -- although that doesn't seem to be the way they fight boar.

Notice in the video that the lion was chasing little girls rather than a full-grown man. Someone above saw a statistic that Mountain Lions have only attacked adults under 5'6". I'm 5'10" used to lift weights heavily when I was younger & weigh 190 pounds. Though old I'm still capable of lifting a heavy Becker knife. :D which is bound to be a lion deterrent when coupled with a hiking stick and a 120 pound 4-year-old Rhodesian Ridgeback by the name of Ben:cool:

Lawrence
 
Chalet said:
Having a dog like that would probably be pretty helpful to deter a mountain lion. Also to detect one.
Click to expand...
^^^^

ocnLogan said:
More or less, its all that everyone else has already said. They are primarily ambush (or opportunistic) predators, so you're not likely to really have a "stand off" with them ...
Click to expand...

So essentially, you're most likely to be blindside 'tackled' and in CQC with fangs and claws in your flesh. Whatever was in your hands probably went flying and anything in a pocket or in a snapped sheath or holster might as well not be there. Seems like a snubby revolver .38/.357 IWB, a BK11/14/24 necker, and a BK17 scout carry would be called for.
 
Lawrence Helm said:
Notice in the video that the lion was chasing little girls rather than a full-grown man. Someone above saw a statistic that Mountain Lions have only attacked adults under 5'6". I'm 5'10" used to lift weights heavily when I was younger & weigh 190 pounds. Though old I'm still capable of lifting a heavy Becker knife. :D which is bound to be a lion deterrent when coupled with a hiking stick and a 120 pound 4-year-old Rhodesian Ridgeback by the name of Ben:cool:

Lawrence
Click to expand...

Just to be clear (as the person that mentioned this above), when I said "primarily" I meant just that. That in the mountain lion attacks "most" people that were attacked were slight in frame. That said, there ARE reports of mountain lions attacking larger men as well, it is just less common. So really, it seems that groups are much safer, and then if there are groups, it seems that the smaller ones are attacked first. The 5'6" number I gave was just as a generality, its not like the mountain lions are out there measuring people like that :p.

And for the record, this is the site I read through. Its an interesting read, if a bit sobering at times. I was honestly surprised how many people defended themselves with so little. In fact, there is one report in there about a guy who took shelter under a tree from a storm during dusk, and found that he'd taken cover under the same tree as a mountain lion. The mountain lion attacked him, and he slit its throat with a Buck 110 (or knockoff of the design) and then walked a km to get help. And another one where the guy put the cat in a choke hold (used to be a state champion wrestler) for long enough that when it came to, it turned and ran.

http://www.cougarinfo.org/attacks.htm

Either way though, I think that someone with a head on their shoulders, with some companionship (canine or otherwise), and access to a decent weapon should be ok.

Doesn't mean I don't think about it when I go camping around here though :/.
 
I had a Ridgeback as a child, got him as a puppy when I was four or five. His name was Quinn, he was stolen from our front yard about 15 years ago. From what I can remember, with a dog like that I second the thought that a mountain lion probably wouldn't list you two as "on the menu".
Just my .02 and a little reminiscing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top