Movie Swords

Originally posted by Nasnandos
Out of curiosity, what do those of you who want a fully functional combat sword intend to do with them? The only popular use I have ever heard of is for stage combat, and the very small group of martial arts disciplines that use them for performance combats.
Click to expand...

Well, there are probably as many different answers to that question as there are different types of Swords People.

1. Some people are Collectors. They don't want to collect BAD examples, but they can't afford to collect real period pieces. (At 15,000 dollars and up for a decent example, this is understandable.)

2. Some people may just want a sword. A REAL sword. They may never do anything with it but hang it on the wall and take it down every so often to admire it, but they want it to be real. They take great satisfaction in knowing that if they had the ability, they actually could use that sword in combat. (Even though they have no real desire to do so.)

3. Some people are like me!
I'm a user. I'm a HARD user. I beat the living hell out of my swords.
How?
In Live Steel Dueling.
I don't use Foils, I don't use Epees, and I'm not interested in the rattan "broom handle fights" one finds in the SCA.

I use real swords with real blades. I spend a great deal of time researching, experimenting and rediscovering the "True Arte" of the Sword.

What I do is not choreographed (sp?) and it is NOT "Theatrical Swordplay" it is definitely not "Sport." It's a Western Martial Art. (WMA)

For that, if I took any sword that was not capable of standing up to the demands placed on it, I would be placing myself and my opponents at risk of grave bodily harm or death.

I do test cutting, I use a "Thrust Dummy" (Getting hard to find volunteers for that one though!) but most of all I fight. It's full speed, it's full power, and it's very intense.

A weak sword won't last a week. A "bad" sword with a poor design or improper balance can handicap me and slow me down to the place where it is impossible for me to win. (I'm currently Club Champion.)

You know, in my work as a Gunsmith, I meet people who collect "High Dollar" guns that if fired once, will depreciate fifty percent or more from their origninal value. They spend thousands on guns they'll never shoot.

Why don't they just collect die cast replicas that look like a real gun, and may even function like a real gun, but cannot be fired?

Somehow, it just isn't the same is it?


Now, I'm afraid I have to be a little unpleasant.
My apologies, but my responsibility as a Moderator of this forum demands it.

Kit,
I want you to know I'm serious about my offer of testing and evaluating swords for you.
If you laughed, thinking to yourself; "There's no way I'm sending anything off to this bozo, I'd never see it again!" that's understandable. You're new to Bladeforums and you don't know me.

However, if you'll do some asking around, you'll find that some people like me, some people can't stand me, but I don't think you'll find anyone who would question my honesty or my reputation. (I've been here at BFC a very long time.)

I didn't make the offer lightly and to be honest, if you felt there was a bit of "Put up or Shut up" implied in the offer, you're right.

There are a lot more people who read these forums than there are people who post. (Stats say that 1 in 10 regular visitors ever makes a single post.)

Many of these people may read your post saying some sword or other is "Battle Ready" or a "Real User" or whatever term you choose, and take you at your word. The problem is, if they take a substandard sword out and try to use it like a real sword, it will fail and either they, or someone close to them will suffer a serious and needless injury simply because they got "misinformation" here on "my" forum.

I can't have that.

If your swords are wallhangers, just say so.
People will still buy them! I have no doubt that the LOTR swords are going to sell like hotcakes, and I hope they do. They're very pretty.

However, if they're not of adequate quality to bear up under intensive use, I wish that you would say so here and that United would say so on their site. Anything else is dangerously irresponsible.

My offer still stands, and I give you my word, I will be absolutely and unflinchingly honest in my evaluation of anything you should choose to send me.

Again, if you're interested please email me. I'll give you my home phone number, (or take yours) and we can discuss any questions you may have.

Please realize that I mean you absolutely no offense or insult.
This is a very important issue to me and it's important for others whether they realize it or not.

This ended up being a very long post, thanks for your patience.
 
I'll throw my 2 cents in here though it might not be worth that much. First of all I think we all know that real swords dont have 420J2 in them. Now I know that good if not great swords can be bought for 200.00 kris cutlery (http://www.kriscutlery.com/)has some really nice ones that are made from 5160 carbon steel the reason they are so inexpensive is they come from the philipines, Museum Replicas (http://store.museumreplicas.com/cgi-bin/www11650.storefront) has some nice looking stuff for a little more but I've never handled any of thiers and I'm not sure about the fact that they come from india, then you can get some basic functional swords from Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works they arnt mueseum pieces but they will hold up to just about any abuse you can dish out prices range from 200-350 and would be what I would want if I needed a sword for something (combat????), then you get into the HOLY CRAP YOU WANT HOW MUCH type customs. As far as United Cutlerys swords they are marketing a product to people that are either looking for something to put on a wall or dont know they are buying something thats not meant to be used cutting stuff.
 
Cyblade, in total agreement.
Your quote.
"As far as United Cutlerys swords they are marketing a product to people that are either looking for something to put on a wall or dont know they are buying something thats not meant to be used cutting stuff." Keep in mind that we are manufacturers and can't control what dealers say in their own marketing. I can only hope they are honest, as we try our best to be in our own wholesale catalog.

Ken, thanks for the lengthy reply. In my 17 or so years in the knife industry, the reply to that question is usually for "stage combat", but occasionally I have heard from people like you who are very serious about your sword art. I asked mainly to see who was posting in this thread, which started from a question by a "movie collector" who "collected" "movie knives" and it is clear that most here are not movie collectors but people looking for fully functional combat swords.

While I am sure you are a great moderator, I think you should go back a read the prior posts. You comment "Many of these people may read your post saying some sword or other is "Battle Ready" or a "Real User" is a little upsetting because I have said no such thing. Here are my exact quotes again:

"The LOTR reproduction swords from United Cutlery are made to be functional BUT ARE BASICALLY COLLECTOR GRADE MOVIE REPRODUCTIONS".

and,

"They are NOT INTENDED TO BE FUNCTIONAL COMBAT SWORDS. They are simply exact reproductions of "MOVIE PROPS", as close (or better) as we could make them to the originals".

And if that is not plain enough, I reply to your question "If your swords are wallhangers, just say so" with, SEE THE ABOVE COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!

Regarding the Conan swords from Albion, I'd like to know if anyone (movie collectors) has bought one, as I am interested in the quality, scale, fit and finish. The photos in the ads are terrible and the sword looks much shorter than the one in the film, but this may just be a badly put together ad. I'm assuming they are quite good if Sampson was involved. The Atlantean sword is one of the truly great fantasy sword designs!

Benjamin, I forgot to include my Colt CT50 Cobra (non laser serrated version) and my Ken Onion Colt Python in my list. I'll let others comment on some of the other brands you mentioned, but I am still laughing. I do have to admit that some of those early Colt 420 SS knives couldn't hold an edge worth a crap. Try out a CT50.
 
Originally posted by Nasnandos

"The LOTR reproduction swords from United Cutlery are made to be functional...

and,

"They are NOT INTENDED TO BE FUNCTIONAL COMBAT SWORDS. They are simply exact reproductions of "MOVIE PROPS", as close (or better) as we could make them to the originals".

And if that is not plain enough, I reply to your question "If your swords are wallhangers, just say so" with, SEE THE ABOVE COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!
Click to expand...

"They're wallhangers" would be plain enough.

Not for me, I myself am almost certain that they're not suitable for use (But would be happy to be proven wrong!) but for those who don't know swords all that well, or read only so far in a thread and walk away thinking; "Kit Rae said the LOTR swords are made to be functional!"

I fully realize that you only said it once, but you did say it. I realize that what you said may not have been exactly what you intended to say, that it perhaps read differently than you meant...

You may think I'm swatting gnats with a sledge hammer, and for that I do sincerely apologize, but think about this:

How would you feel if some kid wound up permanently handicapped because he read that the LOTR swords were "fully functional" and ended up with half a sword stuck in himself?

None the less, my offer still stands should you ever choose to avail yourself of it and I do hope the LOTR swords sell well.

Honestly, if I had the spare cash to throw at a strictly "wall hanger" sword, I'd love one of those "Glamdring" swords!
:D
 
OK, I'll interject a little here. First, these are fantasy designs for a fantasy movie. I'm sure that if the producer/art director of the LOTR movies had given the sworrd designer a guideline that allowed for more realistic designs, that's what would have been designed (Aragorn's "ranger" sword is a reasonably conventional design). LOTR isn't a historical drama or documentory, it's high fantasy. UC are building the replicas based on someone else's design specification, a specification that never needed to take into account real functionality, just something that would look appropriate on a movie screen. Also, while I personally may not be enourmously inspired whenever I see a stainless steel sword blade, it requires less maintenance than carbon steel from the end owner's perspective.

Let's face it, the target market for the movie reproductions isn't people like us (although being the Tolkien devotee that I am, I'll probably buy one or two of the replicas when more of the movie swords are available). The target market is fantasy devotees who would rather read Tolkien and Fiest than Talhoffer and Fiore. For that group, the replicas swords are low maintenance and readily identifiable among their peers. They also get a product that isn't going to fall apart on them unless it's abused, and may help the end owner personalise their own imagination with the story of the book/movie.

We can sit here and gnash our teeth at the injustices which Hollywood perpetrates on the masses, or we can decide that it's really not such a big deal. Knowing how much a historically accurate longsword really should weigh isn't going to solve world poverty or world peace. We are, after all, talking about a merchandised product based on a fantasy story. While we might hope that Hollywood would get more of it's facts right, we aren't exactly starved for choice in our own niche market of historically accurate and fully functional blades. Not everyone sees history through our set of eyes, and not everyone wants to. I've also ranted a bit about the movie replicas on other forums, but the matter is out of my system now. It's really not such a big deal, and there are more important issues for people to contend with in their day to day lives than tang construction and the point of balance for a longsword.
 
Hello all,

I think that some of you could have the idea that me or some of the other guys that have complaint against the declaration that the stainless steel swords are made to be functional (by Nasnandos), want to be only annoying, the fact is that we all have responsabilities also, there are people that could be seeing this forum and have the fake idea that this kind of swords can cut a tree or other things, and they can really hurt themselves, like the petient I mentioned before (last thread).

We all understand that United C. let the words "not functional", but let also that "they are made to be functional", in an antagonistic way. Like Mr. Ken Kook correctly said they could only had put that the swords are decoration stuff, wallhangers only.

I, personally, think it is very important we discuss issues like this, more than size, price or stores of a sword; - the safety of sword art; because a wrong interpretation in what we are discussing can let some people to hurt them or other people. Like that boy of 12 years old I have mention. Of course that Hollywood expose all of us to wrong ideas, but of course there are a lot of people (most children) that hurt themselves by believing that what they see is right, every day we all listen to things like this. So lets not make us the same mistakes.

Again I congratulate Ken Kook and his offer to test U.C. swords, I think that you have the best idea, like we all can see Mr. Nasnandos sometimes speak that their swords are functional (besides some times says that it`s not)??? So the right way to resolve this is to testing, or they really should remove the frase below of their catalog:

quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------Originally posted by Nasnandos

"The LOTR reproduction swords from United Cutlery are made to be functional... "


The rest could stay...

:rolleyes:
 
Let me finish the rest of that quote once again for you.

"...but are basically collector grade movie reproductions".

420J2 is a functional steel, just not for the applications you would like to use it for, but GarethB's post said it best, and this is getting very boring so I'll shut up about it. And by the way United does not market these as "usable" or "functional", only as "adult collectbles", specifically to avert adults from buying them for children. I seriously doubt any adult who cares about their children would give them a 54" sword to play with, even though it is unsharpened!

And I agree Ken, Glamdring is a beautiful sword. I am still waiting to get mine, and Im a senior manager there! But the customers must come first, always.

GarethB, and any of you other true LOTR fans, which swords would you like to see reproduced from the films in the future? Currently Sting, Glamdring, and the Witchkings sword are available. We will have the Unbroken Narsil (from the prologue) out in the Spring and the Ringwraith sword in the Fall. I have asked this on many LOTR websites and have recieved a wide variety of suggestions. Since this is a slightly different crowd, I'd be interested to hear your opinions.
 
I know we have moved on from this topic, but since no one else has said it, I fear I must. I-JUST-CAN'T-HELP-IT!!


Originally posted by DHB the cutter
I would like you to comment what United Cutlery said in this new 420 J2 stainless steel models, the 3000 collection (katana, ninja and tanto). In the announcement they said (literally):

"is a master of high technology fighting and weaponry and their primary arm is the plasmium sword, a device constructed by highly disciplined weapon masters using an extremely secretive form of physics. It's virtually indesctructivle blade, charged by high energy ionized plasma, cuts through practically any material except another blade of its kind."
Click to expand...

OK, can anyone say "LIGHTSABER!" I mean how blatent can one be. In case someone does not know, plasma is the hot stuff that makes the sun. It tends to glow nicely.


PS In the Star Wars books, lightsabers do NOT work the above way. But the above idea would look the same. That is why I call it a rip-off. No offence to Mr. Rae.
 
In fairness to Kit Rae,

You can go far back in Science Fiction, anywhere from the works of the 1930s or so, on up through the works of Robert Heinlein and find stories that include some sort of "electron blade" or as Heinlein put it a "Vibro-blade." (Didn't have a physical blade, just an electrical field.)

If Kit ripped off Star Wars, Star Wars ripped off a lot of people before them.

I wouldn't call it a rip off, just another take on an old and well-used concept.
 
A Heinlein fan on a sword post? I have new respect for you Ken.

I don't recall Lucas himself ever describing how a light saber actually worked in the films other than it had a "blade of pure energy", but he was more of a storyteller than a technical guy. I know he was a fan of Dune, Lord of the Rings, and Kurosawa. He sort of mixed all of those things together, but in a totally original way. You are the sum of the knowledge you have taken in and what you put out is your minds own recreation of those experiences. It is the same with knife design, custom knifemaking, or any other art.

Actually I was influenced by Heinlein, Frank Herbert, Arthur C. Clarke, and a whole slew of other sci-fi authors who used the theoretical physics and science of their times when they invented such fictional devices. I love it when I hear things like "phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range" (Terminator, Aliens) because it stirs the imagination to think and come up with a physical description of the device. What exactly would "phasing" electrical plasma do to be an advantage in some type of weapon? How would it work?

I love traditional Samurai swords and have a small collection, but I wanted to do something in the science fiction range as a collectible so started thinking of what a return of the Japanese feudal system and the Samurai's return would be like in some post holocaust future (also another idea already done by others) and came up with the Samurai 3000 swords, and created a backstory and new physics for how a futuristic blade could "cut through anything". It all bulls%@t but its fun. The handles even resemble something like a light saber in looks (I am a huge Star Wars fan), although much more detailed.
 
Kit, we've spoken in the same thread before, on lordoftheringsmovies.com I'm Raukoncir there. I'm also on lotronline.com, under the name GarethB.

I didn't reply to your question on the movie/lotr sites. Are UC restricted to only the items used in the LOTR movies, or does UC's replica licence cover Tolkien's other books as well?

To be honest, I've never been interested enough to buy movie replicas in the past, but Tolkien's books had a huge influence in developing my interest in Mediaeval history, so if it's Tolkien related I'm inclined to make an exception. Glamdring looks nice, and I do have a perchant for late mediaeval longswords, which the witchking sword emulates, but it's Elrond/Arwen's sword that I find the most interesting of the movie replicas so far. I did see a comment on another site stating that replicas of it will be available later this year. I really don't see myself buying more than two LOTR movie replicas, and at the moment I'm just sitting tight, waiting to see what else becomes available. As far as collecting swords is concerned, I'm much more interested in historical accuracy than movie replias.

As for using stainless, as far as I'm concerned it just doesn't look right. It might be low maintenance compared to carbon steel, but it's too shiney to me and looks wrong as a sword blade. I can understand that UC has reasons for using stainless that do make sense based on the sort of people most likely to buy the replicas, but for me, seeing a stainless blade on a sword usually sets of at least one alarm bell in my mind (so do the words "battle ready").
 
LOTR also was the work that sparked my interest in knives and swords. In fact, if it was not for LOTR I would probably not be in this business. It inspired me to create my own fantasy knife/ sword line.

I can confirm that we are definitely going to make Elrond's sword. We are waiting on Weta (they made the filming swords and weapons) to deliver our sword prop to make exact measurements. If all goes well, it will be out in the Fall. It will be made with a stainless steel blade, not with a mirror polish (I really hate that on swords) but with a fine satin finish. That will match the finish on the movie prop, which I have very detailed photos of.

As I have stated on lotronline, I prefer carbon steel for the more traditional styled swords. I even like the look it gets when it tarnishes. Unfortunately, most people who buy swords are collectors, not users, and do not understand that carbon steel is supposed to do this. They return them to us thinking they are defective. That fact that carbon rusts very easily if not taken care of does not help either. For this reason, we changed long ago to all stainless steel for our swords.

For the Witchking sword, we actually came up with and acid "aging" process to make it look like the iron and carbon had corroded over thousands of years as it appeared in the film. It is definitely not shiny. The other LOTR swords have a satin, almost hand finished look to the blades, and we have done our best to duplicate that.
 
The HD-42 Wolfhound, titanium handled version with the ATS34 blade is indeed the real thing. It is one of the best made folders that I had handled in a long time. And if you know any of my post I was well into the custom folder and high end production folder scene. The HD-42 ABSOLUTELY blew mw away with the material, quality, and workmanship! Especially at the price!
 
Two questions:
1- Ken, how do the live blade bouts and training work? Who does it and where?
2- Anyone know where to get user swords like the ones used in the recent remake of The Count of Monte Cristo? I'm thinking of the ones in the final duel. Are they the small swords of the late 17-1800's or some other kind of sabre?
Oops, a third question- I got a Museum Replicas rapier. This is my first carbon steel blade outside the USFA fencing types and I was surprised at how whippy it is. I could probabaly flick with this thing. Is that normal and the way they really were? I know it is generally a thrusting weapon, but if you needed to cut it would be difficult to get much force behind it because the whippiness causes the blade to act as a propeller and twist as it cuts throught the air. Makes it feel a little unstable.
 
Uncle, Paul Chen over in Manchuria makes at least two rather nice, at least in the pictures, smallswords for CASI. One is a replica of one of George Washington's smallswords and the other is a Scottish court sword. They have recently added one from the era of Napoleon III, which would be the time period of The Count of Monte Cristo. Look here at numbers 1214, 1215, and 1222:
http://www.by-the-sword.com/acatalog/CAS_Rapiers.html
 
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