Mule

[Mister Coffee]

They have talked about doing a regular production Mule in a standard steel with a slightly different blade shape but the same handle so current aftermarket scales would fit, but it has not yet appeared. I think it would take some of the pressure off the new releases, but until we find a way to slay the dragon that is social media, I'm afraid they will continue to be in short supply. Up until now, they have always been a single run in some unusual steel, a way for steel enthusiasts to try new formulas. But since the global pandemic began interest has skyrocketed. How much of that is genuine interest in new steels and how much is "influencer" induced "fear of missing out" is anyone's guess. It's a whole different can of worms than the one Sal opened years ago.

Was the idea ever to distribute these "mules" for beta testing?

 

[sgt1372]

Was the idea ever to distribute these "mules" for beta testing?

Each release in itself was essentially considered a "beta" test for knife steel "nerds" who wanted to compare the performance of different blade steels.

In the words of Spyderco itself:

"In the knife industry a “mule” is a sample knife used for performance testing. Spyderco’s Mule Team series takes this concept a step further by offering the same fixed-blade knife pattern in many different steel variations. This ongoing project allows steel-obsessed knife enthusiasts a unique opportunity to test and evaluate different steels using the same identical design platform.

Mule Team blades are purposely sold without handles or sheaths to make them as affordable as possible and to give our customers the freedom to finish them to suit their personal preferences.

. . .

No matter how you choose to finish your Mule Team blade, the ultimate goal of the project is to actually use your knife to evaluate the cutting performance, edge retention, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening of its specific steel.

. . .

Once you have used your Mule Team knife, sharpened it, and used it some more, you will have developed an informed opinion about the performance of its steel. Please don’t keep that knowledge to yourself! Instead, share your thoughts and experiences with other members of the Spyderco community."

See: Spyderco Mule Team Project

This is why the Mules previously have been offered at such a low prices (only $50 each) and in such limited numbers BUT the interest in and demand for Mules has far surpassed Sal's original conception.

I personally was never interested in doing comparative use testing of the Mules that I purchased. I just considered buying Mules a cheap way to acquire a variety of fixed blade knives using different steels at a relatively low price.

The affordability of Mules has since changed but, if you've got 1 pair of scales and a single bolatron, kydex and/or leather sheath, you can still use/carry a wide array of Mule blades at a still relatively low price, even if you play flipper prices for the blades.

That's the problem that the Mule Team Project currently faces.

The prices are still so low ($75 for the MagnaCut) that people who are not "steel nerds" are immediately attracted to the profit potential of buying and reselling Mules, since they are being resold currently for anywhere from about 3-7x's the original release price -- that's $150-350 each,

The MagnaCut is already selling at about 3xs the release price at around $200 and, as the demand for and interest in the steel increases, that price is also likely to increase. This cuts out most (if not all) "steel nerds" from the market because who wants to "test" and/or destroy a blade that you have to pay $150-350 for?

Not me.

So, it may be time for the orginal concept of Mule Team Project to come to an end by pricing each new release "at the market" (mostly at about $150-250) and limit the number that can be purchased upon release to just 1 per account in order to reduce the profitability of flipping them.

 

[bdmicarta]

The mystery is: Why were the mules so unpopular they were sidelined in 2017, and why are they so wildly popular that they're sold out in 2020-2021?

They use different steels in each one- they can announce a new steel and someone the forum might say "similar to D2" and that will kill the interest in it. But come up with a steel that generates a lot of interest on the forum and the flippers take notice and buy as many as they can.

 

[Sal Glesser]

Hi Sgt,

Thanx for the suggestion to raise the price, but I'd rather not do that. We adjusted the price on this Mule Team because we realized that there were issues we weren't taking into account, but I think we're in the right ballpark now. I still think the answer is to make more than the market demands so they hang around for a few weeks or a month giving everyone that wants one an opportunity to get one.

sal

 

[sgt1372]

I still think the answer is to make more than the market demands so they hang around for a few weeks or a month giving everyone that wants one an opportunity to get one.

sal

I agree that making more (even more than you made of the MagnaCut) would help depending upon how much demand there is for a specific steel but, it's obviously hard to assess that, if (like the MagnaCut) it's never been sold in volume before.

Another idea that I think would also help would be to just limit purchases to just 1 per account.

Limiting the MagnaCut to 2 was a good idea but you immediately saw resellers (many who bought in person at your Outlet) just turn around and offer at least 1 of them (the extra 1 for those who only want to keep 1 or both of them if they're flippers) for sale on EB and CL.

In order to discourage this, you might consider offering multiple releases of a particularly popular steel (like the MagnaCut) in order to undercut resellers based on pricing and, if people know that you may be issuing further releases of the product, this could dry up demand for immediate resales and keep a lid on resale prices (at least until the initial demand has been exhausted).

Limiting purchases to just 1 per account would also allow more people who want one the opportunity to buy one and like also reduce the number available for resale.

In the case of the MagnaCut, if (as I believe) most people bought 2 per order, your inventory of 2000 would have be sold to about only 1000 people (or accounts). If you limited each order to just 1, you could have sold the inventory to 2000 different people (or accounts) thereby doubling the distirbution of the knife.

I can tell you personally that I really didn't need or want 2 MagnaCuts but it made no sense just to buy 1 because you got free shipping if you bought 2 at $75 each and you could possibly resell the 2nd 1 for more than the cost of the 2 together, thereby not only paying for the 1st one (making it essentially free) but also possibly generating a small profit.

If I (and everyone else) was limited to purchasing just 1, none of this would have even been a consideration.

 

[yablanowitz]

Hi Sgt,

Thanx for the suggestion to raise the price, but I'd rather not do that. We adjusted the price on this Mule Team because we realized that there were issues we weren't taking into account, but I think we're in the right ballpark now. I still think the answer is to make more than the market demands so they hang around for a few weeks or a month giving everyone that wants one an opportunity to get one.

sal

That may be the solution, but you and I both know that at some point that is going to result once again in you sitting on a huge pile of inventory that isn't moving. These days, it seems that limiting sales to one per customer or account just results in people creating multiple accounts, or bringing other people to the store with them to buy extras for them. I wish I could suggest a plan to restore the project to its original form, but I'm afraid that ship has sailed.

I do believe that a regular production piece for those interested in the knife more than the steel might take some of the pressure off the releases.

 

[sharp_edge]

Suggest to raise the price in order to discourage the flippers, at the cost of people who really want to buy and use a knife? I am glad to see Sal is not taking that advice.

 

[sgt1372]

That may be the solution, but you and I both know that at some point that is going to result once again in you sitting on a huge pile of inventory that isn't moving. These days, it seems that limiting sales to one per customer or account just results in people creating multiple accounts, or bringing other people to the store with them to buy extras for them. I wish I could suggest a plan to restore the project to its original form, but I'm afraid that ship has sailed.

I do believe that a regular production piece for those interested in the knife more than the steel might take some of the pressure off the releases.

yablanowitz : Are you talking to me or Sal?

If you're talking about my suggestion of offering additional releases after an initial sell out, it depends on what the demand for the steel is and how the additional releases are managed.

Taking the MaganCut as an example, the entire run of 2000 knives apparently sold out on day 1 in around 30 mins (after the credit card processing issues were resolved). So, it's obviously a steel in very high demand.

Ordering additional runs of 500 each, as they each sell out, until they don't, seems like a reasonable risk/approach, if the goal is to make the steel available to EVERYONE who wants one at the original release price, provided of course they can be produced/sold w/o losing any $ on them.

This practice should siginificantly depress the re-sale market for a new release with respect to both demand and pricing, at least until there are no further releases at the original (lower) release price.

The profits from those releases should more than make up for the cost of any remaining unsold inventory from the final release which eventually always sells out, at which point no further knives in that steel would be released.

As for limiting to 1 per customer, it may not completely solve the "problem" (because there will always be people who flout the "rules" or limitations) but it will significantly reduce the ease/ability of flippers to stockpile new releases. It will also limit the likelihood of "real" buyers from buying 2 just to get free shipping and/or to flip the 2nd one in order to pay for the 1st and it will still likely increase the distribution of the knife to more people who really want to buy/own 1.

 

[yablanowitz]

I was actually speaking to Sal. Making additional runs is not as simple as it sounds. Unless they are planning to use the steel in regular production, they only have enough for one run. Ordering enough for multiple runs entails the problems of tying up more capital in materials and what to do with all the extra steel if the first run doesn't sell. Especially since he is ordering for knives that are a year or two away, and working on several at a time.

 

[Mister Coffee]

.

I was actually speaking to Sal. Making additional runs is not as simple as it sounds. Unless they are planning to use the steel in regular production, they only have enough for one run. Ordering enough for multiple runs entails the problems of tying up more capital in materials and what to do with all the extra steel if the first run doesn't sell. Especially since he is ordering for knives that are a year or two away, and working on several at a time.

Again, if The Mule Team exists as a beta testing group — granted, an informal one — then Spyderco just has to decide how many units they need to circulate in order to get adequate data. If, however, Mule Team knives are just cool knives for people who want cool knives, then you have the production problems that you and others have already brought up (^^like this quote).

What am I missing? I'm new around here.

 

[ace]

You also have to consider the setup cost of additional runs. What other models have to be bumped to run these additional runs, what is the setup like, what costs are associated with switching production to different models, etc? Bottom line, not as simple as it sounds especially for something like mules, that most likely make very little money for the company.

 

[yablanowitz]

.


Again, if The Mule Team exists as a beta testing group — granted, an informal one — then Spyderco just has to decide how many units they need to circulate in order to get adequate data. If, however, Mule Team knives are just cool knives for people who want cool knives, then you have the production problems that you and others have already brought up (^^like this quote).

What am I missing? I'm new around here.

The only thing you are missing is that the program has kind of gone off the rails since the restart.

It began as a way to get different steels into the hands of people interested in trying and comparing different steels. The goal was to get a piece of the stuff into the hands of those interested at the lowest possible cost. The form was settled on so comparisons could be made between steels rather than comparing different shapes and grinds. The decision was made to sell them direct rather than through dealers and distributors to eliminate middleman markups.

It worked well enough for several years, then interest seemed to wane. Some steels sat on the shelf for months or even years. The program was put on hold for some time before Sal started lining up new steels to try. When he started it back up, things had changed radically. Instead of 600 pieces taking care of immediate demand, they sold out in a frantic rush in minutes and left many unhappy customers crying that they missed out. This last round he went up to 2000 pieces, and they still sold out in a frantic rush that overwhelmed the server - and left unhappy customers crying that they missed out. And those Mules appeared on eBay at greatly inflated prices while most of us were still trying to get ours ordered, indicating that flippers are at least part of the problem.

Is there that much increase in interest in steel comparison, or is it an increase in interest in knifemaking that has people snapping these up to try their hand at handlemaking, or is it social media influencers driving a fear of missing out that makes people who aren't really interested in the program want one so they can be one of the cool kids? We don't know, but I for one don't think the program can continue unless we figure that out.

 

[sgt1372]

I was actually speaking to Sal. Making additional runs is not as simple as it sounds. Unless they are planning to use the steel in regular production, they only have enough for one run. Ordering enough for multiple runs entails the problems of tying up more capital in materials and what to do with all the extra steel if the first run doesn't sell. Especially since he is ordering for knives that are a year or two away, and working on several at a time.

Understood. Just brainstorming to try to make things better the next time.

FWIW, there are always pro/con arguments for any idea but I've found in my education and work that it helps to be open to ALL possibilities before dismissing/shutting them down out of hand.

Enough said. I just hope to get my order for the 2 MagnaCuts filled and be done w/it.

 

[winnerone23]

I can tell you personally that I really didn't need or want 2 MagnaCuts but it made no sense just to buy 1 because you got free shipping if you bought 2 at $75 each and you could possibly resell the 2nd 1 for more than the cost of the 2 together, thereby not only paying for the 1st one (making it essentially free) but also possibly generating a small profit.

If I (and everyone else) was limited to purchasing just 1, none of this would have even been a consideration.

I personally like being able to get 2. I like modifying them, making scales, etc...

As I have a handful in different steels, modified and still a NIB Z-wear and Z-Max, I don't need 2 Magnacut..
I just pick a member that has posted about trying and getting skunked.
I pass the 2nd along, for cost. This is the 2nd steel in a Mule, that I have done it.

Lead by example, SGT and save a fellow member from a flipper...
No need to consider selling the 2nd for profit, that way.

 

[sgt1372]

Lead by example, SGT and save a fellow member from a flipper...
No need to consider selling the 2nd for profit, that way.

I've thought about it but I've got to receive the 2 that I ordered before I can actually consider it.

Then the question is who deserves such "largesse" which is a different problem altogether. Unless you know the person and/or have had prior dealings w/him or her, you don't know if they're just scamming you to get one to flip themselves.

Sorry to be a cynic but that's the world we live in these days.

FWIW, what I am more likely to do is trade the MagnaCut (and maybe a few other Mules that I have) for other blade steels that I'd rather have instead.

In this case, I'd know that the person on the other end of the transaction is serious enough about Mules to have previously bought/collected them and is not just a scammer/flipper looking for a quick score.

 

[yablanowitz]

Understood. Just brainstorming to try to make things better the next time.

FWIW, there are always pro/con arguments for any idea but I've found in my education and work that it helps to be open to ALL possibilities before dismissing/shutting them down out of hand.

Enough said. I just hope to get my order for the 2 MagnaCuts filled and be done w/it.

Understood, and not trying to shut down ideas out of hand. As it happens, I made a similar suggestion a few Mules back (putting them into the supply chain with middleman markups and all that entails) but Sal didn't like the idea. Frankly, I didn't like the idea either, but I was and still am trying to find a workable solution, so I ran it up the flagpole and saw who shot at it.

 

[yoko]

I still like my thought

Pre orders to opfocus , spyderco site forum members, and spyderco members here

It'll show spyderco know the interest, and a lot more of the people who are spyderco fans get the knife

Done and done.... or am I thinking simplistic

I'll keep mentioning this because it's a simple solution that seems to keep getting over looked/ignored

 

[sharp_edge]

Or just let people preorder at the full set price by a certain date. Then make the number of knives based on the preorder total, plus whatever extras. No limit on how many each person can preorder.

 

[yoko]

No limit on the amount of knives you can order in a pre order, that won't work

How bout a pre order with a limit of 1 knife

 

[yablanowitz]

I still like my thought

Pre orders to opfocus , spyderco site forum members, and spyderco members here

It'll show spyderco know the interest, and a lot more of the people who are spyderco fans get the knife

Done and done.... or am I thinking simplistic

I'll keep mentioning this because it's a simple solution that seems to keep getting over looked/ignored

I don't think it would be nearly as simple as you seem to think.

Or just let people preorder at the full set price by a certain date. Then make the number of knives based on the preorder total, plus whatever extras. No limit on how many each person can preorder.

So, we order and pay for knives based on guesswork production cost, Spyderco then orders the steel to make that many knives, the foundry fits that quantity into their production schedule, makes and ships the steel, Spyderco fits it into their production schedule, makes the knives and sends them out. Total elapsed time? Two to three years if all goes well, more if it doesn't. If the program continues at the current rate of four releases per year and I continue to buy two of each per my original promise when this was getting started, I will have twenty or more knives paid for at a time. That's a lot of record keeping for Spyderco, and a lot of complexity added to a program that Sal wants to keep simple.